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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 9:58pm

FluMom, I think people in the last US elections had a bad choice. h.clinton had already shown to be able to create chaos and wars in the Middle East, Ukraine-if I was a US citizen I never, ever would have voted for "that woman". Forced to make a choice between two bad candidates I would have given my vote for trump (I understand a vote for a "green party" would have "limited use"). My hope with trump would be; 

-1-Get the US out of those endless wars in the Middle East (Afghanistan since 2001, Iraq since 2003-those wars are very damaging the US in many ways, clinton is one of the persons responsible for the present chaos in Libya, Syria-also lots of European countries UK, NL have made bad choices in these wars.)

-2-De-globilization of the economy. Both the US and EU exported lots of jobs to countries with lower wages, less rules. So we had a lot of people unemployed here, and a lot of people in those countries had jobs that are hardly better than slavery-under unsafe conditions. (Globilization of jobs did export jobs to China in the 80's/90's-but a lot of those jobs did move on to countries like Bangla Desh, Ethiopia-with even lower wages, less rules-a.o. on safety-a lot of workers do die/get ill due to bad working conditions). 

-3-MAGA-I would welcome investments in US infrastructure-we (the Dutch) have a lot of knowledge in "waterworks"-dams, dykes etc. A "healthy" US would be a good thing for the world-investments in (rail)roads, housing, (local) economy etc in stead of wars.

I am disapointed in what trump did do with the credit he did get from the "US working man"-he did not do better than earlier presidents, he did worse. Getting out of all kind of international treaties is unwise. Putting "people he trust" as head of the CDC, EPA etc-that lack basic knowledge on the job they are supposed to do was unwise. His "blind support" for Israel is pushing Israel towards Russia and China (Netanyahu does get what he wants from trump/kushner-no need to negotiate with the US leaves more room for deals on Haifa-with China, etc.).

Trump is not the only politician that failed in this pandemic-as good as all political "leaders" did do a bad job. 

Lack of action made this-most likely once a local problem-a pandemic. The point is how do we get out of it-for now-not how or were did it start. 

The first thing you do when your house is on fire is try if you can contain it-if not get out ! When the fire is under control that does not mean you can get into the house-at best you may hope there will be something left of the house. 

In a virus outbreak it is the same, try to contain it or get out. Getting out means Non Pharma Intervention when there are no vaccines etc. Lockdowns, masks to slow the spread of the virus. 

Since a virus does spread exponential the later the action the harder the action needed. In my opinion the only way out now is a long term lockdown-maybe for two years-and for most of the world (maybe New Zealand, Iceland etc. were they have the outbreak under control only need travel restrictions-no travel to unsafe area's). 

You need a economy to keep healthcare, food etc going. In these circumstances you only have room for a "war-economy"-enough to keep the people alive-that is it. Forget about hollidays, cinema's, restaurants etc. Survival becomes the only priority. 

Could we have prevented this-a Dutch answer; "yes" and "no";

-Yes. Wuhan did go in full lockdown end of january-that in itself did warn the world something major was going on.

-No-people are not likely to accept they have to stop their jobs/shops-and "go and hide inside" "before the storm". 

What the world needs now for most is leadership-someone to lead us the way. Maybe someone like NZ-PM [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern[/url] could be helpfull-if the world would be willing to accept international coordination-the only way out of this mega-disaster. (The US economy did decrease by 30% in Q2-over 25% unemployment-most likely worse than "the great depression" after 1929-most of the rest of the world is not doing much better. Even countries like New Zealand, Iceland etc. need export, tourism. etc. an open market. They will get hit very hard even with the virus under control).

Peak Prosperity was talking of three plans;

1-permanent lockdown till there is a vaccine-impossible, to much economic damage, most likely the idea of a vaccine is an illusion. If it can be made-there never was a vaccine against a corona-virus-it has to be made in time and on such a scale it can be of meaning for all of the planet.

2-re-open everything-impossible, even if a lot of infected cases may not have real or any symptoms-we do not know how large that group is, testing capacity is still very limited-those that do get symptoms often do get ill, often for months, a lot of them will need a hospital, some need ICU, some will die. There are limits to hospitals, ICU's and HCW (Health Care Workers-I believe in Italy over 170 doctors died due to Covid19-you can not replace experienced doctors and nurses in a short term. When the staff gets infected, ill, or run away-there will be hospitals without a trained staff-not of much use.)

We do not know that much of this-mutating-virus yet. Does it infect children that harms them after weeks on a larger scale ? Lots of infected people do shown long lasting health problems after recovery. The idea of "herd/group immunity"-let everybody get infected-it is a hard time we must endure-is not a good idea. It most likely will crash the healthcare system, but also in crashing the healthcare system-open the door to all other kind of diseases that we already have a problem with at present. (A.o. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensively_drug-resistant_tuberculosis[/url], [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria[/url], [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengue_fever[/url] )

3-The balancing act. You need an economy to have a healthcare system. "When the house is still on fire you do not move in. You wait till the heat, smoke, danger is gone"-but even then there are lots of things to do. Our world is still in a virus-fire-out of control in most places. You need firefighters to be able to do their job. In other words-the economy has to allow fire/virus-"fighters" to do their job. For the rest the economy has to keep most of us alive. 

During the Spanish Flu [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Less-affected_areas[/url] (East Asia had face-masks then) also in the US [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu_research[/url] some cities did not have military parades and did see much less infections. 

Non Pharma Intervention is also the mean "weapon" in [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_HIV/AIDS[/url]

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-headed-another-tanker-war-iran-time-venezuelas-coast[/url] DJ-Bad news-the US is telling Iran not to export oil to Venezuela. The US does punish companies that allow Germany, Turkey to buy oil from Russia. The US puts sanctions on companies around the globe that do high tech/G5-deals with China. The US Army is stopping Russian and Syrian forces inside Syria.....and of course it is all Russian, Chinese, Iranian, etc, etc, etc, etc, agression. Please wake up ! Stop the US from its endless agression ! 

[url]https://www.rt.com/news/488890-china-envoy-israel-dead-reports/[/url], [url]https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202005171079329857-chinese-envoy-to-israel-found-dead-in-herzliya/[/url] DJ-I was looking on what China media had to say about the "unexpected death of a new ambassador"to Israel in the middle of China investing in Haifa-port, a major desalitation-deal and other Israeli deals with both Russia and China. [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/chinese-ambassador-israel-found-dead-home-sparking-avalanche-rumors-amid-tensions-us[/url]

Isr. [url]https://www.debka.com/mivzak/chinese-ambassador-israel-dies-at-herzliya-home/[/url]

On China Global Tv Network (CGTN) [url]https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-05-17/The-unwanted-record-116-nurses-succumbed-to-COVID-19-in-Brazil--QxX6pAZySI/index.html[/url] and [url]https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-05-18/Three-COVID-19-vaccines-in-phase-II-clinical-trials-in-Beijing-QAiPEY6eXK/index.html[/url]

The global China Daily had this [url]http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202005/17/WS5ec0d679a310a8b2411563c8.html[/url] Virus did not come out of Wuhan-UK study

[url]https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1188638.shtml[/url] Bejing to build P3 bio-lab

But no news on the suspicious death of the CChinese ambassador in Israel-China may try to get as much info as they can. (In one of the comments in Moon of Alabama-in the cold war the death of a russian agent would be answered by the death of a US agent-so they stopped killing each others spies.)



We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 12:04am

After reading all of that and all your proof...People still need to go back to work.  Hospitals here are laying off people because there are not that many Covid Patients!  None of the extra beds at Javits Center in NY were used none in the Denver Convention center were used either the ship Comfort was sent home after not used.   Every Democrat politician at the start of this was yelling for more beds, more vents and not one went with out either.   They have closed all the "extra" beds not needed.  Panic before people knew what they really needed.   So don't try and use the hospitals will be over run.

Now some cities like NY and Detroit are bad but Denver just got back 19 nurses who went to NJ to help.   We need to send help to hot spots.  Yes Doctors and Nurses will die just like the regular public they did so during Spanish Flu and Hong Kong Flu.    Death will happen but people need to go back to work.

We really need to get back to work !  My neighbor works for a group of Psychiatrists.  They are getting ready for a large amount of people who have lost homes, savings, jobs, cars and the depression and suicides' that are coming in mass.  No matter what people have to pay bills and to do that they have to get back to work.      

Many Americans are very happy with President Trump and he will be elected for another 4 years so you had all better get use to him being President.  If Clinton had been President and did everything Trump has done she would have been praised and told how great she was.  Politics of the Left!

Time for people who want to go back to work to do so using social distancing, masks (if they want) and washing hands.  For us older people we need to stay home if we can as others who have comorbidities.  If they have to go back to work because they have to pay the rent then they need to be as careful as they can.   Just life!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 12:04am

DJ-I am becoming quite cynical on (news fo) this pandemic. From a un-helpfull blame-game, stupid experts (if you do not know a lot of a new virus just say so-do not claim it does not go human-to-human-in february while it went H2H then. Also "children not effected by the virus" is now becomin "Most"children-do we have to wait another few months to see-again-experts did simply not know enough but were not willing to admit that ? 

"Experts" also warn "re-opening"will start a second wave. But re-opening does not mean all people start acting the way they did before this pandemic. Most likely most of them will think twice before getting on a train or plane. 

Still Non Pharma Intervention-the only thing we have-only works when as good as all people stick to it (by force if needed-but good policies would ask less police). If the virus can not spread long enough most likely it will "go away" (hopefully not go to animals as new hosts). 

Of course a lot of (safe) research is needed [url]https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1188638.shtml[/url] China will build another bio-lab. (This is what a us outlet makes of it-pretty stupid !-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/cant-make-beijing-begins-construction-p-3-biolaboratory[/url] of course this ZH-article does not mention the US outsourced most of its dangerous research. Studies to risky for the US would be done in other countries.)

[url]http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202005/17/WS5ec0d679a310a8b2411563c8.html[/url] The "WuFlu" did not start in Wuhan-China a Cambridge study claims [url]https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9241[/url]

DJ-On this forum people did mention illnesses that had (some) similarity with Covid 19 during the summer/fall of 2019 in the US and Europe. There are some indications people do have antibodies for Covid19 that stayed in isolation since the start of the spread in their country/area. This all is suggesting the spread of Covid 19 started much earlier-in "the west" then the "official story" claim. 

It could be people did have several colds-caused by several corona-virusses giving false test results. Looking-again-on the start of AIDS, Spanish Flu-even in these decades old dossiers it is hard to point out were the start was. 

The present claim by some "main-stream-media", (pseudo) politicians etc. "it came from China" is not very science based. The first  known/recognized major outbreaks were in China-that does not mean the virus started there. 

Even worse [url]https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985?fbclid=IwAR26vshDILoPnbtWxkoR739NqA2Xjl-2Az6WfyaAdV_6YVJ77rk-wJ-2iXw#Abs2[/url] this article is on a US-China study on bat-virusses in 2015 in the US-North Carolina.

From [url]http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202005/17/WS5ec0d679a310a8b2411563c8.html[/url];

There is strong evidence that SARS-Cov-2, or the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, didn't originate in the city of Wuhan, Central China's Hubei province, a University of Cambridge geneticist has found.

In a recent paper published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, Peter Forster, a fellow in archaeological research at Cambridge, said he found three main strains of the virus, labeled as A, B and C.

The A and C types are found in significant proportions outside East Asia, that is, in Europeans and Americans. In contrast, the B type is the most common type in East Asia.

The A strain was the founding variant because it was the version most similar to the type of SARS-Cov-2 discovered in bats, but it wasn't the predominant type in Wuhan, according to his research.

Of 23 samples that came from Wuhan, only three were type A, the rest were type B, a version two mutations from A. 

His research also found that the coronavirus may have been circulating among humans and animals earlier than previously believed, based on an analysis of the mutation rate.

He found that there is a 95 percent chance that the original successful spread of the virus may have started as early as Sept 13, 2019. COVID-19 was first reported in Wuhan in December.

Link to the study: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9241

DJ-Another earlier trace of the virus [url]https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985?fbclid=IwAR26vshDILoPnbtWxkoR739NqA2Xjl-2Az6WfyaAdV_6YVJ77rk-wJ-2iXw#Abs2[/url] ;

A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

Nature Medicine volume 21pages15081513(2015)Cite this article

  • Corrigendum to this article was published on 06 April 2016

Abstract

The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV underscores the threat of cross-species transmission events leading to outbreaks in humans. Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1.

DJ Study was done by;

Author information

Affiliations

  1. Department of Epidemiology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA
    • Vineet D Menachery
    • , Boyd L Yount Jr
    • , Kari Debbink
    • , Lisa E Gralinski
    • , Jessica A Plante
    • , Rachel L Graham
    • , Trevor Scobey
    • , Eric F Donaldson
    •  & Ralph S Baric
  2. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA
    • Kari Debbink
    •  & Ralph S Baric
  3. National Center for Toxicological Research, Food and Drug Administration, Jefferson, Arkansas, USA
    • Sudhakar Agnihothram
  4. Key Laboratory of Special Pathogens and Biosafety, Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Wuhan, China
    • Xing-Yi Ge
    •  & Zhengli-Li Shi
  5. Department of Cell Biology and Physiology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA
    • Scott H Randell
  6. Cystic Fibrosis Center, Marsico Lung Institute, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA
    • Scott H Randell
  7. Institute for Research in Biomedicine, Bellinzona Institute of Microbiology, Zurich, Switzerland
    • Antonio Lanzavecchia
  8. Department of Cancer Immunology and AIDS, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    • Wayne A Marasco
  9. Department of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    • Wayne A Marasco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 4:06am

Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

That is not true money is important when you lose your house or your apartment for non payment or your car!   People need to make up their own minds as to what they are willing to risk!

Yes it is!  Because some countries make sure their people are housed - whatever their finance.  

We have a few homeless; mostly addicts and a plan in place to deal with them.  Businesses have had HUGE packages to help them and have been paid to keep furlowed staff on.  Still we are not doing as well at this as some others and we are way more poor than the USA.

The reason American businesses are in such trouble is the money culture, not the lack if it.



'And I would agree on the personal choice if the consequences were personal, they are not.  Shoot yourself if you wish - it's your life to take.  Don't spray the crowd with bullets - those lives are not yours to dispose of.

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Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

I ask any of you to come up with a plan that does not kill the economy and yet keep "everyone" safe!   

You can't have both.  In a perfect world, one could.  But this world isn't perfect.  Either you choose the economy and own the deaths that this choice will cause or you choose lives and deal with the economy fall out.  Clearly you've chosen the economy but I haven't seen you own the ideology of that.  But this doesn't surprise me.  Apparently you have permission to always make it someone else's fault. Just don't make the mistake the callous nature of this choice fails to be noticed.  

I choose "We The People".  A country which is based in Constitutional Law.  Present leaders aren't doing what the could and should be doing.  That's on them.  And on you for supporting them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 10:02am

Well based on Constitutional law people should be able to choose if they stay at home or go out.   I support that We The People having the Freedom to make decisions.  I am proud of that sorry you have a different idea but in this country you can think and do what you is best for you.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 11:02am

Testicles!!  (Not the word I want to use, FluMom.)

You are not allowed to shoot people.  But killing by any other way is just as bad!  The poor people are still dead.  

In fact slowly suffocating over weeks is probably an even nastier way to die than being shot, especially alone without a hand to hold.

Would you prefer anarchy?  That is true freedom - and what "doing best for yourself" amounts to.

Shooting dead some a$$hole who annoyed me is good for my stress levels!  That does not mean I should be free to do it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 8:46pm

DJ-Eventhough Covid19 seems treatable (according to PP/CM a pathologist) HCQ has become "politics" absurd !

[url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/covid-19-links.html[/url] good info-as always

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mXPwNQc3lc[/url] PP-Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr-money printing worsens at the longer term the economics.

-Deaths per million-Belgium on top-because they also include suspected deaths 781 per million-DJ maybe Belgium is the only country with some realistic numbers ?)

-The FED; while the economies are crashing-lots of people sink in debts the FED is creating digital-dollars to "pump up stocks" for "the rich"-(DJ-creating also more social instability)

-DJ-Of course there is a relationship between [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy[/url], endless wars and money out of thin air. Politics has lost contact with its citizens and is taken over by money.

DJ-Was it much better in the past-depends on what time you look. In the 60's it was much different-more balanced. The idea that "rich pull the economy [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics[/url] at the end is unfair and not working.

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/coming-nuclear-menace-hypersonic-missiles[/url] DJ-With the US claiming it has a right to block Iran selling oil for gold to Venezuela, looking for conflicts with Russia, China...weapons become more dangerous. 

[url]https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/category-5-amphan-to-send-massive-storm-surge-into-eastern-india-and-bangladesh[/url] A mega-killer cyclone is moving to India-Bangla Desh-Nepal.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2020 at 4:42am

Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Well based on Constitutional law people should be able to choose if they stay at home or go out.   I support that We The People having the Freedom to make decisions.  I am proud of that sorry you have a different idea but in this country you can think and do what you is best for you.  



That entire quote tells me you don't know squat about the Constitution.  Or the Bill of Rights for that matter.  Or even the impact of States of Emergency in connection to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and State's Rights.  

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Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

Would you prefer anarchy?  That is true freedom - and what "doing best for yourself" amounts to.

Clearly she does.  But it's apparent she doesn't understand that because of being deeply invested in her cherry-picked ideology that enables her to believe everyone can do what they want, when they want to and to endanger anyone they want to get satisfaction.  It's the old "I have mine and damn anyone else" mentality.  

Ayn Rand got it so very wrong and it's bled into the consciousness of the Evangelical Conservatives.  

Now everyone is paying for such nonsense.  

You can't fix stupid.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2020 at 9:46pm

DJ-In Dutch news a mink  (not related to any political group) has transferred the virus to a human in the NL. One can only hope this is a very single incident. When the virus gets able to use more species as a host and to jump from species to species we are lost....

[url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/20/mink-may-infected-farm-worker-coronavirus-agriculture-minister[/url]

(DJ-To be realistic, with the virus out of control in the 3th world "out of control" may see other species getting infected and spreading-a nightmare...)

Also in the news hay fever may protect from Covid19 (pollen pushes the virus away-would explain season-effects) ?

[url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/major-dam-fails-in-michigan-evacuate-edenville-immediately[/url] , [url]https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/amphan-nears-coast-of-eastern-india-surge-threat-remains-high[/url] A cyclone on its way to Calcutta/Kolkata-14 million people, Chitagong-4 million people-India/Bangla Desh border-most likely will not only kill thousends but also further spread the virus.

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/are-european-countries-still-flattening-curve[/url]

Peak Prosperity; "politicized medicine" (please.....) [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF4BzDYsXTc[/url] 

-[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine[/url] has been used in the US since 1955, does prevent malaria. But because trump is in favor of this cheap medication (Remdesivir-not working according to studies is 1000 times more expensive) "it has to be bad".  Again-please....most countries use HCQ in the early stages of a Covid19 with good results. "Politicizing" a working cure kills-there is no excuse for that-crazy, absurd (people that do that please lock yourself up !)

PP is repeating himself-yesterday his story on the FED had not much news-maybe most of the news may be outside the US/EU ?

-The re-opening debate (Georgia) also got polluted with "politics" (misusing statistics etc.)-not constructive, destructive, killing people !!!

-Moderna vaccine looks effective-in first study on 8  (or 45 in 3 legs)persons works with [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_RNA[/url] . But there is only very limited info yet-stocks went up (DJ-Maybe that was the point ?) Earlier (Oxford) stories turned out based on not finished testing-rhesus monkees in one study did get infected even with antibodies (that did not work). (DJ-I am getting very sceptical-is "the good news" not for stocks going up-making money not a cure ? PP. TeslaCharts on twitter-owner of Moderna is selling stocks like crazy-DJ;looks like a fraud) PP Why was Moderna allowed by the FDA to do tests on humans as a first step ? 

-DJ-Is everything for sale (in the US) ? The press, test results ? People die because "investors" push their expensive product ?

Dr. John Campbell [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4URofJ86U54[/url] (good info under the video)

-Healthcare crashing in Sao Paulo-healthcare overwhelmed in 2 weaks, peak in a month...

-Loss of smell/taste in the UK most likely missed-means 70.000 cases of Covid19-infected missed-specialy with younger age and women. (The symptom was known but government did not act on it.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2020 at 8:17am

DJ-The new outbreak in NE China has a new form of the same virus-or an imported version of it (A or C version, B-version was widespread in Asia see the PNAS-link below)-another question is what role animals may play-does the virus spread via animals ? 

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/chinas-newest-covid-19-outbreak-shows-virus-may-be-mutating[/url] ;

Since then, a flood of new research has been published, and scientists have discovered more discouraging signs of mutation in samples of the virus. And yet, medical experts including Dr. Anthony Fauci have seemed at times overly eager to dismiss these mutations, and claim - without evidence - that there was no reason to believe the virus was evolving and changing in a way that might complicate efforts to create a vaccine.

Which is why we're highlighting this Bloomberg report from yesterday describing the latest findings from doctors and researchers in northeastern China who are seeing the coronavirus manifest differently among patients in this new cluster, suggesting that the virus may indeed by changing in unknown ways and complicating efforts to stamp it out.

-

The two biggest differences doctors have noted after studying the 46 cases of the virus confirmed over the past weeks are that patients take longer to show symptoms, and are taking longer to recover.

Patients found in the northern provinces of Jilin and Heilongjiang appear to carry the virus for a longer period of time and take longer to test negative, Qiu Haibo, one of China’s top critical care doctors, told state television on Tuesday.

Patients in the northeast also appear to be taking longer than the one to two weeks observed in Wuhan to develop symptoms after infection, and this delayed onset is making it harder for authorities to catch cases before they spread, said Qiu, who is now in the northern region treating patients.

"The longer period during which infected patients show no symptoms has created clusters of family infections," said Qiu, who was earlier sent to Wuhan to help in the original outbreak. Some 46 cases have been reported over the past two weeks spread across three cities - Shulan, Jilin city and Shengyang - in two provinces, a resurgence of infection that sparked renewed lockdown measures over a region of 100 million people.

Furthermore, doctors are noticing that patients in the northeast are suffering damage to their lungs, while in Wuhan, patients exhibited damage in their kidneys, hearts and across their internal organs.

Qiu said that doctors have also noticed patients in the northeast cluster seem to have damage mostly in their lungs, whereas patients in Wuhan suffered multi-organ damage across the heart, kidney and gut.

To be sure, it's unclear whether these differences are the result of mutations in the virus's genetic code, or are simply a result of the relatively small cluster of patients, and the fact that doctors are monitoring these patients much more closely than they monitored most patients in Wuhan.


DJ-See also [url]https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9241[/url] ;

Abstract

In a phylogenetic network analysis of 160 complete human severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-Cov-2) genomes, we find three central variants distinguished by amino acid changes, which we have named A, B, and C, with A being the ancestral type according to the bat outgroup coronavirus. The A and C types are found in significant proportions outside East Asia, that is, in Europeans and Americans. In contrast, the B type is the most common type in East Asia, and its ancestral genome appears not to have spread outside East Asia without first mutating into derived B types, pointing to founder effects or immunological or environmental resistance against this type outside Asia. The network faithfully traces routes of infections for documented coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) cases, indicating that phylogenetic networks can likewise be successfully used to help trace undocumented COVID-19 infection sources, which can then be quarantined to prevent recurrent spread of the disease worldwide.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2020 at 10:58pm

DJ-No PP today, (well, I was wrong-just somehow missed it-see below is next posting) since "scenario's" was meant to give a wider perspective let's start with politics;

[url]https://theduran.com/how-biden-continues-to-protect-his-billionaire-donors/[/url] and [url]https://theduran.com/trumps-may-19th-kiss-off-letter-to-who-lies-as-usual/[/url] the writer [url]https://theduran.com/members/eric-zuesse/snax_posts/[/url] not very happy with both candidates. DJ-I think democracy has become all $, € etc count-not all votes count-an [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy#Minority_rule[/url] . Not only in the US but in most "democratic" countries. Another look at "democracy" [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Characteristics[/url] underline "equal rights for all"-the world is not doing a great job here also...

DJ-I am not interested in insulting anyone else on this forum. People who come to this forum have an interest in pandemics-since this forum is meant to be on that subject-and on a global scale-not only the US. Maybe it would be a good idea to have discussions on how to connect pandemics with good healthinsurances for all-or are there other ways ? Preventative care-trying to get a popullation as healthy as one can so they have better defenses against a pandemic ? 

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/us-deaths-projected-triple-year-end-regardless-social-distancing-study[/url] DJ-I think there are to many variables in this question to have an answer-will it be a dry hot summer or a cold wet one-with most people staying indoors. Will international airtravel restart soon-spreading the virus via a/pre-symptomatic carriers ? (Unwise to restart international flying-from airpolution-that made this pandemic worse-but politics stays away from that part-to virus spread-it looks like those that make decissions did not learn a lot from this pandemic). Another very major risk could be virus spread via other than human hosts-minks in NL are almost all in cages-in that way under control. If the virus manages itself in pets, rabbits, the problem will get much larger.

On the cure/treatment side [url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/covid-19-links.html[/url] ;

-Earlier infection with (a mix of) other corona-virusses may provide (some) protection against Covid19-looks promissing. (DJ-was in Dutch news-no link yet) Also a claim hay fever-pollen-block virus spread (in theory can you fill the air with particles that unable virus-parts to spread ?)

-Treatment with antibodies looks promissing, PP "and others", international studies claim good results with HCQ-a 70 year old anti-malaria drug-with untill recent very limited reported side effects-in the early stages of an infection (and in combination with Zinc !!!).

-NPI/masks, social distancing is slowing down the virusspread. One has to find a balance with keeping the economy going. 

On the international scene [url]https://theduran.com/trumps-threat-of-ending-relations-with-china-is-a-distraction-from-his-coronavirus-mishandling/[/url] Trump insulting Xi is unwise. We may slip into a third world war step-by-step. US blocking Iranian ships on their way to Venezuela (in an oil-for-gold deal-is Iran oil cheaper than Venezuela's oil ? ) can become another [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident[/url] . China is doing oil deals with both Iran and Venezuela-any US action against Iran or Venezuela is an action against China. 

A third world war may have already started with the first steps in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria. [url]https://theduran.com/tomorrows-arctic-theatre-of-war-or-cooperation-the-real-story-behind-the-alaska-purchase/[/url]  (For history freaks-the US civil war saw the Confederation backed by the UK and France, Russia backed the Union. The UK used Canada as a second front against the Union. By selling Alaska to the Union Russia limited the UK. The Czar wanted an alience with the US against the UK) From the Arctic to Africa (China making deals with 30 African countries in Covid19-aid-Africa may provide some of the food for China) new fronts appear.  Some of the-long lasting-wars in Africa (for minerals, oil) are also "parts" of world war three step one. 

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Brazil[/url] Bolsenaro calls himself a "fascist"  he made Covid19 uncontrolable in Latin America. Since bolsenaro came in power by US support/coup China may be very welcome all the way to the US-Mexico border. Since the US thinks it is normal and acceptable to have its ships in the Black Sea, Iran-Persian Gulf or in sight of Shanghai soon Russian, Chinese, Iranian (a.o.) ships may be "taking a look" at Galveston, San Francisco, New York-from international waters.

Basics; words can be empty, a lot of bla-bla or used to express intentions, goals. The present US foreign policy makes North Korea "acceptable", is destroying Jordan-Israeli peace (West Bank is NOT Israeli the way Jordan, Egypt see it-the US pushing for annexation of (parts of) the West Bank in a (bizar) "peace plan" is in fact a plan to end peace.) The US putting sanction on allies for doing deals with Iran (Iran-deal was stopped by the US NOT by the EU !), Russia (North Stream etc.), China (5G-Huawei etc.) is pushing the EU towards Russia, Iran, China. 

Covid19-and the way the US is dealing with that-is pushing Eur-Asia integration even harder. 

Covid19 can become an End-of-Live-Event-it does not have to go that way. We have to organize a "new normal", our wealth and the planet-not ours-but this planet belongs to next generations-has limits we need to respect. 

If life is sacred we have no right to treat other species the way we do. 

Harmony, harmony, let's all join in harmony [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTJAzLn2ew[/url] peace ! 


We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 2:14am

Peak Prosperity may 20-[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i4BpTcBdrc[/url]

-statistics PP thinks real numbers 10 times the "official counted and tested cases" [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/url] (DJ-for the NL in deaths one could argue excess deaths indicate Covid19 may be 1,5 to 2 times the official numbers-Belgium may be very realistic in counting. In most countries bureaucracy and defenitions cause lower counts).

-Pre Exposure HCQ use may offer protection-if infected less illness Mumbai-India experience in the police force. 

-Washington Post against HCQ is one thing, WHO against HCQ looks bizarre..in march 2017 they claimed the opposite-"hundreds of millions of doses administered"-"no reports on sudden deaths".

-China's new outbreak comes from Russia-no signs of a mutation (DJ-from Russian samples) of the 46 cases-"10% " are critical=5 (?), 26 in hospital-lockdown of 100 million people ! (China does take it serious).

-human-mink-human transmission in NL is "rare"-zoonosis PP Minks are close to ferrets-those animals also used for SARS and Covid19 (also in cats). IF Covid19 finds a new reservoir in minks, ferrets, cats, tigers it will become much harder to stamp out Covid19 (without a vaccine). (DJ-In the NL case also 3 cats were involved-so it may have gone human-cat-mink-human or human-mink-cat-human or even human-cat-mink-cat-human DJ-the longer the trajectory the more risks of the virus adepting to other species.You do not want cat-cat transmission of Covid19-with cats also infecting humans !)

-How did this virus get some of its genetics ? PP has still a lot of questions on why this corona-virus has some extra parts other corona virusses do not have.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uATMbGK__Tg[/url] Dr. John Campbell-reinfection unlikely-PCR test detect dead virus parts-false positive. (Up to three months after recovery those remains may be found-in theory even longer-but not infective) Korean CDC-long term immunity (DJ-one or two years Dr.J.C-in my opinion Dr.J.C. may be over optimistic. [url]https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9241[/url] three different forms of the virus-China had B-form, now from Russia A or C form ?)

-No hiding of the virus in the body-that can reactivate after being dormant

-DJ-Dr.J.C. likes to talk about "herd immunity" and makes very optimistic estimates on the numbers of people already infected-but not ill. I (DJ) would like to see better data on herd-immunity to decrease "risk of surprises" (in children, animals etc).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 9:58pm

DJ-No P.P. today,

[url]http://www.thebigwobble.org/2020/05/i-have-never-seen-such-cyclone-in-my.html[/url] first reports from India/Bangla Desh indicate much damage-most likely also much virus spread; cyclones and Covid19-lock downs do not mix very well.

China [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-hoarding-ppe-again-it-braces-covid-19s-second-wave[/url] putting a hundred million people in lock down in the N.E. (Russia/Korea border area) for only a very limited number of (imported from Russia) cases ? 

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/end-hong-kong-china-announces-crackdown-hong-kong-national-security-law-abandons-gdp-target[/url], [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/oil-crashing-after-chinas-great-uncertainty-statement[/url], [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/escobar-china-updates-its-art-hybrid-war[/url]

DJ-With the US also getting out of the [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies[/url]  and [url]https://www.rt.com/news/489404-russia-us-violated-open-skies/[/url] we are-slowly-moving towards real risk of war. (Between the US and Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba etc.)

[url]https://www.rt.com/news/489403-us-envoy-nuclear-spending/[/url]

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/revolutions-and-wars-what-according-ray-dalio-comes-after-printing-money[/url]

DJ-Of course the slow restart of holliday-air-travel shows we did not learn much yet of this pandemic-virusses fly for free...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 9:02am

DJ-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/hcq-moderna-politics-pandemic-medicine[/url] When medication becomes part of a "political debate" is there any hope left ? (Also in NL anti-HCQ is going on-MSM know how google-translate works and publish US "press"/"studies"-the CDC has an influence that goes wider than just the US.)

Both in the US [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/[/url] and worldwide [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#daily-cases[/url] daily cases of Covid19 going up. In a lot of countries NPI/lockdowns are lifted or "not maintained"-the pandemic was-for a moment-maybe a bit under control [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#europe-usa-cases[/url] now it is out of control-on a global scale. 

What better moment for the US to start not one but two wars; [url]https://southfront.org/as-showdown-looms-over-irans-oil-shipments-to-venezuela-us-nato-forces-poised-for-possible-interception/[/url] and [url]https://southfront.org/the-saker-will-trump-really-start-two-wars-instead-of-just-one/[/url] also forcing the UK, France, NL to fight on the US side. 

The Netherlands Anttilles [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Antilles[/url] , [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_islands_(Leeward_Antilles)[/url] are just north of Venezuela. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura%C3%A7ao_International_Airport[/url] Hato-has been used by the US for decades in "anti drug operations in/against"Colombia. US AWACS operate from Hato-FOB (Forward Operating Base). 

What the above articles leave out of the story is [url]https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/china-determine-future-venezuela-190709143930431.html[/url] . By attacking Iran AND Venezuela (and supporting protests in Hong Kong, support for IS-Uyghurs in West China/Afghanistan etc) the US will attack China without a direct war. The "official story" will be an anti-drugs/terror operation getting out of control. 

In the mean time [url]https://southfront.org/turkish-project-shifts-to-libya/[/url] Turkey-supported by IS-"freedom fighters/moderate rebels/mercenaries" from Syria is fighting against Haftar who is backed by Egypt, Russia (it could be [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalifa_Haftar[/url] from time to time also gets support from the US, UK, France). Turkey claims oil-rights near Cyprus and has made a deal with "a government" in Libya (that only excists now on Turkish support). Russia is believed to "increase military activity" in Libya. 

Syria did not bring a Turkish-Russian war-maybe Libya will...(with also Egypt against Turkey).

Another frontline is the Israeli plans for annexation of the West Bank. [url]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/jordan-warns-israel-massive-conflict-annexation-200516035706236.html[/url] (Of course Syria would like to regain control of the [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights[/url]-revenge for Israeli support for IS. Lebanon-Hezbollah not happy with Israeli airstrikes on its forces in Lebanon and Syria. )

The Covid19 pandemic is running out of control again high speed-the best the west knows to do is starting wars. 

(DJ-A side note, SouthFront, Peak Prosperity and many other "alternative media" face bans on you tube, twitter etc. The information war-just like with [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine[/url] is in full speed. A cyber war will-most likely-be next and-in itself-can get "very ugly". World War Three may-in many ways-not look at a war at all. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction[/url] makes other weapons are needed to avoid destruction. )

Most likely the wars could go faster than the virus(ses)....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 10:13pm

DJ-If you talk about the Spanish Flu without the background of World War 1 you are only telling a part of the story. 

From [url]http://www.thebigwobble.org/2020/05/a-magnitude-61-rocks-west-coast-of.html[/url], [url]https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/amphans-toll-more-than-100-killed-billions-in-damage-hundreds-of-thousands-homeless[/url] and [url]https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/aging-dams-changing-climate-a-dangerous-mix[/url] to [url]https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/iran-is-closely-monitoring-us-movements-ready-to-strike-anywhere-in-the-world-commander/[/url], [url]https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/us-seeks-to-build-strong-front-of-asian-nations-against-china/[/url] and [url]https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-army-launches-operation-to-secure-oil-fields-video/[/url]

On the US-China front [url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/chinas-move-in-hong-kong-illustrates-the-end-of-us-superiority.html[/url] 

DJ-In many ways we are in a "pre-world war three phase" with already widespread wars all over the globe-indirect confrontations between (mostly) the US and (mostly) Russia-Iran-China. A full blown open war would be very destructive. Further escalation seems unavoidable.

They are not the only (nuclear) players-India/Pakistan, Israel, Brazil may "surprise" us. 

On Covid19 [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/us-launch-massive-covid-clinical-test-over-100000-people[/url] sounds interesting-the test include "Moderna" vaccine "claim"-this story-as ZH puts it; just another vaccine pump headline ?-may have to do more with stocks and greed than with finding a working cure for Covid19. 

[url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries[/url] Brazil now #2 after the USA. [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/india-reports-startling-jump-cases-lockdown-eases-russa-suffers-record-covid-19-deaths[/url] DJ This pandemic is far from over-most of the damage is still to come.

Peak Prosperity [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnOyFhEg4Ac[/url] ,

-May go to two video's per week-not daily (DJ-Under pressure of youtube-censorship ? Maybe bring the news when it is news ?)

-Back to work in China=safety first-in the US  (etc) "back to normal that is not normal"

-China (PP-gold standard) Health checks, social distancing-is also masks to minimize the initial viral load, people only on the workplace if they need to be there, two-three day teams (one monday,wednesday, friday, two tuesday, thursday, saturday)-personal cleanliness, disinfection (all in this video [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpn7LoHEg94[/url])

-HCQ versus "new expensive not working (except for profits) medication)" Lancet "study" turns out to be an "observational retrospective study of earlier studies" (and if those studies were bad-this "lancet-study" also will learn HCQ does not work in severe cases (or dead people....) also zinc left out of this (DJ worthless-damaging) study. (DJ-I have no medical background but if HCQ is working in covid19 it may be one of the very limited means we have to get this virus under control. ) FDA-side effects Asperin more dangerous than HCQ...

-PP; To much focus on treatment-boost your immune system, masks 

Conclusions of PP-lost trust in (some) institutions, media. Wondering on why China is learning lessons fast on how to deal with pandemics-why "the west" refuses to learn any lesson. "Plant a garden".

DJ-Making profit seems to go above saving lives in many western countries. This pandemic became a pandemic by in-action. "The West" will suffer immense both on a human scale and an economic one. Hope we do not end up in World War Three-"Learn Chinese in 30 minutes" [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOpQf3fi2N4[/url] China did have limited damage of this outbreak-still managed to have their economy growing-even when there may be lots of propaganda-look at the action. If export is limited it is because limited demand NOT due to production limits in China. (Larger investments in the military, further co-operation with Russia, Iran is not a good sign-China is preparing for war-in the hope to prevent war. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War[/url] China did lose millions of people in wars [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War[/url], [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War[/url] and [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#China_intervenes_(October%E2%80%93December_1950)[/url] )

DJ-If there is a (sort of) "winner" in this pandemic it most likely will be China. There is no proof of lab-escape-it is still unclear what caused the virus outbreak (even when and were it started)-but the proof is that China did control the outbreak-so far. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2020 at 10:52pm

DJ -According to some calculations (on this forum-Dutch [url]https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/bevolkingsgroei.1064969/page-484[/url]) we may see-for the first time in a very long time a decrease of population growth in NL in april. Not mainly becauso of excess deaths but by decrease of people coming to the NL as a refugee (closed borders), to study or work. Expats, foreign students did leave the NL. 

One of the many effects is lower rents, airbnB-housing now used just for housing, not for tourists. We had one of the bussiest public transport systems in the world [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/22/ns-expects-eu47-billion-loss-state-support-needed[/url] people now choose to use a bike (bike production and export is exploding). Cities do not like an increase of car-use-still regulations have to be made to encourage people to use cleaner ways of transport. Since a lot of people will work from home it is open how mobility will develop. 

[url]https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/05/unemployment-shoots-up-100000-youngsters-lose-their-jobs/[/url] The real unemployment numbers will go up-companies now get subsidized by the government not to end jobs. 

-Looking at the statistics [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#daily-cases[/url] the trend still is increasing for global number of new cases. (You have to look a bit further-there is a weekend slow down in reporting. Also-on a global scale-testing is a major problem. [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#case-distribution[/url] The US, Brazil, Russia and Spain stand for almost 50% of all cases. This coming week global number of positive tested Covid19 cases will pass the 6 million, the US will soon be over a 100.000 tested Covid19 deaths. 

-[url]https://www.rt.com/op-ed/489400-open-skies-treaty-trump/[/url] RT may be correct in believing Trump wants to end all treaties he did not sign. From the Iran deal, to the Paris-climate agreement, international weapon treaties. [url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/us-threatens-new-nuclear-tests-to-push-against-russia-and-china.html[/url] and [url]https://www.rt.com/news/489554-us-first-nuclear-test/[/url] The US restarting a weapon race, nuclear testing may be the end of cooperation between Europe, Canada and the US. (Germany already announced they would stick to the open skies agreement with a.o. Russia.)

-[url]https://www.debka.com/hostile-cyberattack-on-israeli-internet-sites-the-countdown-has-begun/[/url] Iran has been under cyber attack [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet[/url] for over a decade. Cyber warfare is a specialism of Iran, US, Israel, China may be learning fast.

[url]https://sputniknews.com/latam/202005231079396321-us-threatens-venezuela-bound-iranian-tankers-with-imminent-use-of-military-force-un-envoy-says/[/url] The first Iranian tanker with gasoline has reached Venezuelan waters. [url]https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Iranian-Oil-Tanker-Arrives-in-Venezuela-Guarded-by-Air-and-Sea-20200522-0016.html[/url] (Venezuela has enough oil but very limited refinery-capacity. (It could be the US does not want to sink deeper in confrontations with this many countries. Attacking Iran ships in international waters (anti-drug or anti-terror excuse) on their way to Venezuela (after again a failed US backed coup there) will harm US relations worldwide. Latin American countries would "not welcome" that US agression. Germany, Turkey with their Northstream/Turkstream pipelines from Russia will wonder if the US would attack those lines as well. The present US foreign policy is pushing the rest of the world towards Russia and China.)

-[url]https://southfront.org/brazil-recent-political-developments-pressure-continues-to-build-against-bolsonaro/[/url] DJ-After the US coup in Brazil against left wing leaders the fascist (he calls himself) bolsenaro is creating such a mess in Brazil his days may be numbered. RT called trump narcistic, bolsenaro [url]https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Video-Exposes-Bolsonaros-Little-Concern-in-Fighting-COVID-19-20200523-0008.html[/url] shows no interest in the Covid19 explosion in Brazil (DJ-With his links to ultra right death squads he may welcome the poor to die. Organize aid and demonstrations to spread the virus and kill the poor. Maybe both the US and Brazil "use" Covid19 for "ethnic cleansing" [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing[/url] , [url]https://www.telesurenglish.net/opinion/COVID-19-Killer-of-Black-Brown-and-Poor-of-US-and-Haiti-20200512-0016.html[/url])

[url]https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/10-Countries-on-Alert-Due-to-Uncontrolled-Pandemic-in-Brazil-20200520-0008.html[/url] DJ-Lack of containment of Covid19 in some countries (US, Brazil, other third world countries) means Covid19 will stay out of control on a global scale.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2020 at 11:58pm

Finland too has seen a surge in bike sales, but this seems more as a form of exercise.  Anyway, it will be good for the future if people keep using them [better exercise, more social distancing if travelling to work, less fuel consumption]. 

Epidemic sparks bike sales spike in Helsinki

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2020 at 1:34am

EdwinSM-Thanks for the link-always nice to see news from places less represented on international media. 

Just googled a bit [url]https://www.hel.fi/helsinki/en/maps-and-transport/cycling/promotion/[/url] more bikes need better bike-infrastructure. If this means less room for cars-it would also mean less polution from cars. Polution is one of the factors that made people more vulnarable for Covid19. 

Riding a bike is also boosting the immune system-if the airquality is not poor-so also in that way helpfull in this pandemic. Bikes may be a better way for the "working poor" than public transport-to get to the job. Civilized countries do have good public healthcare-this should be a new normal for ALL countries if we would like to have some chance against Covid19 (getting endemic). 

Scandinavia-the Nordic countries-show a welfare state-with no extreme income inequalities, public housing&care, free education (often) can mix with a growing economy. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabitha111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2020 at 7:38am

Bikes are one of the "hot" items now in the US, along with toilet paper...and very hard to find. As soon as the bikes arrive at the local Walmart, they are sold out.
I believe families are buying them to keep the kids busy and also to go on family bike rides, since there are less recreational activities available during the shutdowns.

'When you feel as though you can't do something, the simple antidote is action: Begin doing it. Start the process, even if it's just a simple step, and don't stop at the beginning.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2020 at 10:01pm

Tabitha111-Are bikes in the US seen as an alternative for cars or still seen as toys (like skateboards, roller skates) ? Here in NL politics-in words "love bikes" in action do not enough to make bikes safe in traffic. The number of people riding a (e)bike in accidents is rising. Pedestrians, wheelchairs etc all end up at cyclepaths.

Bikes are also usufull in policies on climate change-but in fact car usage goes up more than the use of bikes. Municipalities can charge for parking a car-parking spaces for bikes only cost money for them. 

-Looking at Covid-news in NL; meatprocessing also a major spreader in NL-in one site (over) 22% of the 600 workers tested positive. Most of those workers come from Poland, Romania-work and live were the job is. Contacttracing very hard (and most likely this story is just a tip of the iceberg-a lot of that kind of jobs is done by people that are not legal in NL-employers that are not willing to cooperate).  In Germany-Frankfurt Baptist church may 10-did see over a 100 infections, a party in a Leer-just over the border-now has 118 in quarantine. [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/shocking-crowds-flock-ocean-city-maryland-ignoring-social-distancing[/url] my DJ-impression-the 2nd wave is on its way. 

-People get tired of the restrictions, need an income. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdIIwNyB1AA[/url] Dr. John Campbell (and some others) keep giving good info. I understand Peak Prosperity taking a step back-but it gives a false impression. NO-we are just at the early stages of this pandemic, there may be some hopefull signs in vaccine development-but with over 7 billion people to vaccinate even in the best scenario  vaccinating "the globe" would take more than a year.

-[url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/5-000-chinese-troops-enter-india[/url] and [url]https://community.defconwarningsystem.com/forums/military-events.6/[/url] DJ-Is there coordination between China and Pakistan in a "move" against India ? (DJ-Is that "move" meant as a warning for India not to work to close with the US in anti-China policies ? With Russia doing the diplomacy between China and India ?)

-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/escobar-china-one-country-two-sessions-three-threats[/url] in July Putin and Xi will meet in St.Petersburg SCO/BRICS conference. By 2030 both China and India will have larger economies than the US (China by PPP already is larger than the US-since the US is spending a lot in a "closed market" on military US weapons are very expensive and no longer the best than "open market"weapons. Boeing, Lockheed etc face no competition (of foreign producers) in the US. They can charge what they want (DJ the F35 as an export weapon has to be linked to widespread corruption and tunnelvision in the countries that buy these weapons. The "stealth"F35 has paint on it that does not stick, problems in movements etc. it is a bad product.).

Trump claiming he "can out spent" Russia and China in a new cold war is "very unrealistic"-Russia and China sometimes make better weapons at 5% of US costs. The US is basicly bankrupt already (with large debts to China). 

Overall-DJ-we are just in between wave one and two of this pandemic. Most of the damage is in Brazil, US, Russia. Even southern Europe is slowly recovering for the moment. Wave two will bring more damage-healthcare is exhausted, people are not willing to accept restriction.

[url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/the-moa-week-in-review-open-thread-2020-41.html[/url] With lots of links-Brazil, India, Mexico much larger group of young get Covid19. Military spending during a pandemic as a waste. 

[url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/suicides-outpacing-coronavirus-deaths-in-california[/url], [url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/chicago-mayor-openly-defies-u-s-president-sends-police-to-raid-churches-to-shut-down-sunday-services[/url] (PP-"bad managers" in many countries politicians fight eachother-show no leadership. Leave people in impossible situations.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2020 at 10:24pm

DJ Looking at [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#daily-cases[/url] on a global scale we are still in the first wave of the pandemic. When you look at the numbers of most European and some Asian countries they have peaked and can expect a second wave. 

If there are three main strains of Covid19 with China first having the B strain and now dealing with a-likely smaller imported from Russia-A or C strain-different strains of Covid19 may be an important reason for a second wave. 

People who did catch colds from corona-virusses may have some immunity (against some strains ?) for Covid 19. 

-The [url]https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/05/second-person-catches-covid-19-from-a-mink-minister-is-preparing-measures/[/url] could mean a major problem. There are similarities with a 2007 outbreak of [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_fever#Epidemiology[/url] in the Netherlands (in wich the government failed completely-up to this day they are not open on number of cases and long lasting chronic Q-fever infections).

The mink-farms are in the area were the first cases showed up end of february. What if minks did get Covid19 (over) two months ago and did spread it in the whole region (like goats did in 2007 with the Q-fever outbreak that may have infected a 100.000 persons) ? 

What with the cats that were in the mink stables-while the air was full of virus-particles ? Is there cat-cat transmission of Covid 19 ? How (un)likely is cat-human spread ? The official RIVM (Dutch CDC) story is that minks giving Covid19 is very unlikely-still we now have not one but two-unprecedented-cases !

[url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/25/mink-farms-3-people-infected-coronavirus-animals[/url]

Most likely if there is an explosion of cats with breathing difficulties, or cat-owners getting ill-it will be hard to cover this story up. 

-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/it-was-designed-infect-humans-covid-19-cell-culture-theory-gains-steam[/url] DJ-Allthough dealing with this outbreak is priority #1 the big question remains-were did this virus come from ? 

-Today [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries[/url] the US will reach the 100.000 Covid19 deaths. This week we will see 6 million confirmed cases worldwide. The real number most likely will be much higher-at least double. In Africa there are few doctors, almost no testing capacity. Brazil healthcare (a.o.) is collapsing. After the cyclone India and Bangla Desh numbers will further explode. 

Some parts of the US and Europe may have a break-few countries Iceland, New Zealand seem to be "outbreak-free"-but suffer economic consequences. Again-on a global scale we are just in the middle of a first wave. 

Governments fail to make long term plans. Put money in airlines that should not be flying in the coming years. Still ignore healthcare and airpolution, climate change [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/25/record-set-sunniest-spring-ever-300-hours-sunshine-normal[/url].. 

[url]https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/britain-johnsons-pandemic-management-is-trashing-his-authority.html[/url] UK conservatives priority is making money on medication (destroying public healthcare). Also in the NL government claims there is no room for air-poluting companies to pay tax over CO2 emmissions-but healthinsurance costs will go up [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/21/unions-furious-dismissal-fine-scrapped-coronavirus-aid-discussions-ongoing-pm-says[/url]..

DJ-To make this political-the rich caused this pandemic-first by "Made in Italy"luxeries-made by Chinese in Italy, then ski-resorts, flying around the globe. I believe 10% of air-passengers do 80% of the flying. Conservative governments in "most prepared for pandemic countries (#1=US, #2=UK, #3=NL)" made this outbreak a pandemic by inaction. Now they also go for expensive medication from private companies. The gap between the rich and poor in developed countries only gets wider. 

-

International; [url]https://theduran.com/tucker-carlson-exposes-us-government-involvement-in-saudi-9-11-coverup/[/url] 

[url]https://www.rt.com/news/489648-iran-tanker-arrives-venezuela/[/url] 

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2020 at 3:58am

DJ-You may ask what is worse, Covid-19 came from a lab or from nature [url]https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-is-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-warns-chinas-top-bat-researcher-2020-05-26[/url] if it came from nature-what else to expect ? 

-Polution made Covid19 (much) worse [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/26/70-want-keep-clean-air-coronavirus-cabinet-cutting-co2-tax[/url] There is also some good news [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-pandemic-fuels-bicycle-boom[/url]..

-[url]https://theduran.com/strategic-considerations-on-the-covid-19-crisis/[/url] The crisis was already there-Covid19 did speed that proces up.

-[url]https://theduran.com/the-us-is-bluffing-china-claims-trump-too-weakened-by-pandemic-to-intervene-in-hong-kong/[/url] and [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-wants-deploy-helicopter-drones-along-indian-border-tensions-soar[/url] The US is giving financial support to "pro-democracy students" (and Uyghurs in west China-also CIA-airlifted to IS area's in Syria) .

-[url]https://sputniknews.com/africa/202005261079419647-who-official-against-reopening-african-nations/[/url] DJ-Africa needs international aid to deal with Covid19.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2020 at 8:54pm

Peak Prosperity [url]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD2-QVBQi48RRQTD4Jhxu8w[/url] now twice a week, tuesday and thursday. Chris Martenson was exhausted of making video's, doing research. I (DJ) notice also it is pretty hard to get more info than what MSM is telling you already. Of course PP/CM as a pathologist also looking in at HCQ, did the virus come from a lab-will have had "long days" reading an awfull lot...

From PP/CM day 124: A total lack of common sense;

-Email of the day-from a retired nurse-talking on common sense, loss of trust in government, experts (that have strong beliefsystems-to put in PP words) means asking simple questions with an open mind (on HCQ as example; [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/health/india-expands-use-hcq-prevent-coronavirus-based-three-studies[/url]) gets you blocked from twitter, almost kicked of from YouTube (DJ-Makes me wonder were that "You" stands for.)

-PP expects Covid 19 getting out of control again in the US. ("Common sense is not a gift, it's a punishment. Because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it"-love that !)

- PP looks at twitterfeeds, "playing with numbers" IFR, CFR etc. Someone comes up with a "survival rate of 99.984%. DJ-You can only come up with such a number if you believe we had the worst of the pandemic-only look at US numbers-YES-99,984% of US citizens survived ! (So far) DJ [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/url] When you look at the "outcome ratio" 87%=recovery (even often with lasting organ-damage, long revalidation) 13% is death. And that is only the official tested cases. In "developing countries" (DJ-That is the countries we choose to keep poor-we could steel their resources so why pay for it.) there is no testing (so no cases-yeah !) just a lot of ill people dying. The global outcome ratio in reality may be moving towards 25% deaths. (If 20% of all cases require hospitals that are not there, mild cases see pneumonia-you die of that in a "poor"country). A lot of denial...

-Memorial weekend (in the US) mass gatherings solved by "selfquarantine", if you wear a mask no need to take 6 feet distance-"wisdom" (DJ-PP has the patience to explain it all again-and there may be some use in telling people it is a calculation of risk-reducing factors. I (DJ) by this time only can go         )

-[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult[/url] looked at the "Lancet study" on HCQ at concludes the numbers have to be manipulated. (DJ-Of course the studies that HCQ does not work in people who are already dead are pointless, unless you want to sell expensive drugs that often also do not much better than a 70 year old cheap malariadrug that did not see any serious complications till 2020).

-In this "lancet-study" on all continents 10% of the poulation smokes-simple fact check the numbers are made up-fantasy. Still based on this "study" WHO stopped HCQ research (but a lot of countries have the wisdom to ignore stupidity). 

-Experiences in Malaysia, Costa Rica (with low deaths-per million numbers) with HCQ are positive. In combination with social distancing, masks (working from home etc) , boosting immunity we can get Covid19 under control. 

Other news, [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2020-05-26/how-many-companies-are-worth-less-zero[/url] What companies have a future (and when) ? DJ In Germany government is buying shares of Lufthanse, car manufacturing, lots of airliners now become state-owned (profits=private, losses or for the taxpayer). Since this pandemic may be far from over it would be wise to use the money for essentials-to keep all of us alive, rather than spending that money to keep rich people rich (at-again-the cost of the tax payer). 

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2020-05-26/thanks-central-banks-market-fire-inflation-comes-next[/url] DJ-Nobody for now can tell how bad it will get-but there seems to be no long term strategy with banks, governments....

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2020-05-25/mrna-moderna-using-unethical-and-untested-animal-and-human-genes-vaccine-social[/url] DJ Of course people love to believe they can make a fortune and (financialy) contribute to a cure for Covid19-if it sounds to good to be the thruth it may simply be a way for someone to get your money...

[url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/is-the-u-s-prepared-for-war-with-china[/url] DJ-Hal Turner also claims China moving further into India [url]https://community.defconwarningsystem.com/threads/indian-chinese-troops-clash-near-naku-la-in-sikkim-sector.14034/[/url] , [url]https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/last-chance-for-us-to-counter-chinas-rise/[/url]

DJ-Most likely China is dealing with Covid19 much better than a lot of other countries. They still have a strong workforce-if the foreign markets are "limited" production capacity may go to the military. [url]https://www.rt.com/news/489838-moscow-denies-africom-planes-libya/[/url] (DJ-Propaganda war ? Russia may have planes in Egypt ? Since Israel also has a drilling-rights conflict with Turkey would Israel allow Russian planes from Syria to go to Egypt/Libya ?)

[url]https://www.rt.com/usa/489853-minneapolis-police-protesters-clash/[/url] In the US racial tensions are increasing...(Of course "non whites" are over represented in Covid19 cases/deaths-not only in the US. DJ-It should not be "black lives matter"-all lives matter-it is a human rights issue-not only in the US-also in Europe, Asia, Latin America (Brazil is far worse than the US). 

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_United_Kingdom_foot-and-mouth_outbreak#Spread_to_the_rest_of_Europe[/url] In 2001 we had foot-and-mouth-disease in NL. Riots etc. After that [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionella[/url], [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_fever[/url] now the NL has (at least) two cases of animal-human transfer of Covid19. Since government is going for a cover up some people now show more interest. 

Show of courage "Brassed off"-great movie ! [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8hIc7DpuE[/url] "Concerto de orange juice"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 13 minutes ago at 10:04pm

DJ-It is just past 6 in the morning-having my breakfast and a look at this forum-lots of issues....

-[url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/italy-researchers-86-of-covid-19-deaths-actually-from-chlamydia-pneumonia[/url] Can co-infection with [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlamydia_pneumoniae[/url] explain the severe illness ? (DJ-Is the Covid19-coronavirus in itself not the major factor but the combination with this clamydia-bacteria deadly ?)

-[url]https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/that-was-fast-tropical-storm-bertha-develops-and-makes-landfall-over-south-carolina[/url] The US had a second tropical storm "Bertha"-developed from a disturbance into a Tropical Storm within an hour....

-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/satellite-images-confirm-rapid-chinese-military-expansion-along-disputed-indian-border[/url] DJ-There is a lot of speculation on what China is doing and why. India wanted to build a road in disputed area-China wanted to stop that. (Local issue) The US would like India (with Australia, Taiwan, South Korea) to be part of a cooperation to contain China (geo-political). There has been disagreement over the border between India and China for decades (if not centuries). 

[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/trump-makes-unexpected-offer-mediate-india-chinas-raging-border-dispute-amid-military[/url] and [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/what-could-come-next-regarding-hong-kong-here-nuclear-option[/url] DJ-The US has been "supporting" the "pro-democracy movement" in Hong Kong-in Chinese view undermining China, Bejing rule. The US also-with Turkey-has been active in [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang[/url] "Chinese Turkestan". Most likely airlifting Uyghurs from western China to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya to fight with IS. 

It is expected that both China and India will have surpassed the US-economy by 2030. Asia has over 4 billion people-something like 80% of the global economy may be in Eur-Asia (depends on the study). 

US strategy always was control of the sea-but Eur-Asia is increasing land transportation routes. DJ-It could be China wants to make it clear they are the number 1 in Asia. China has strong links with Pakistan (China-Pakistan-Economic-Corridor [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_Economic_Corridor[/url] CPEC) giving China access to the Indian Ocean. Iran (and Russia, Malaysia, Indonesia) is a main energy exporter to China. 

In Russian and Chinese view IS and al-qaeda are set up by the CIA as anti Russia/China actions. Both "groups" promote a religion that is strange to the area, comes from Saudi Arabia/Gulf States. 

One should not confuse nationalism with communism/socialism in both India and China. China without the Communist Party could be a bigger problem. 

-A pandemic and a US policeman killing a black unarmed man is not a good combination. [url]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/its-real-ugly-protesters-clash-minneapolis-police-following-george-floyds-death[/url].. DJ-I can imagine growing frustration with politics-both parties come with old men "with issues" to "lead the country". It is not only a US problem-[url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/05/26/1-10-dutch-money-troubles-since-coronavirus-crisis[/url] here in NL rules are complex and a lot of people have to deal with much uncertainties. 

-[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/here-best-advance-indicator-if-second-wave-coronavirus-coming[/url] DJ-There are lots of ways that may bring a second wave of Covid19. (Global we are still in the first wave-only limited area's have had a peak and therefore may face a second wave-but that is a wordgame. A pandemic is world-wide-a wave is over when it has peaked all over the globe, not just in a few lucky countries.) Here in NL we have the mink/cat problem. If Covid19 would spread to cats, rabbits etc. you have a very major problem. In Bio-warfare IS spreading the virus in Kabul, Bagdad, Damascus (or the US/EU) would be a nightmare. Unfortunately we do not need minks, rabbits or IS to spread the virus-"normal people"ignoring basic science-are very good at keeping Covid19 getting out of control.  

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Joined: January 16 2014
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 3 minutes ago at 5:14am

Researching over breakfast DJ?  'And I thought I was obsessive..

ERCD
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