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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

So was this all overblown? Media frenzy

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Usk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So was this all overblown? Media frenzy
    Posted: April 07 2020 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Newbie1A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 7:35pm

YUP,,,, Alberta premier today stated that by the time this pandemic is over AB can expect to see 25% unemployment - roughly 4.35 million so approx. 1.1 million unemployed...

deaths expected to be 400-3100 dead (expected scenario) or in less likely/more severe scenario 500 to 6600 deaths...

as I posted in other thread - that's roughly a 0.0015% CFR

Sorry - edited to add link https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/in-televised-speech-jason-kenney-reveals-grim-potential-covid-19-scenario-of-up-to-6600-deaths-in-alberta/ar-BB12i7br?ocid=spartandhp

When I was in college in an accounting class - I picked up an error in textbooks' work sheet (had been used for years never caught) and a gf & I were laughing about it.  When the instructor (also headmaster of program) asked what was so important we could 'visit' - I pointed out error...got drug out into hallway and lectured about 'professional protocol' and told I was "too analytical" - that I could find error in anything...I laughed and said 'this is accounting - we're supposed to find & prevent errors aren't we?" and turned and walked back into classroom.  

I'm not great at math - but I 'like' numbers and head thinks in a way it see discrepancies...this over reaction of govt has been bugging me for a while - then this news story tonight...wow!  Over a million people with no income to keep a roof over head or food on the table for 400-6600 dead?!?!?! Wow...

If it's to be - it's up to me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 7:41pm

I am beginning to think China got us good. Maybe if we had just let it burn through it would have had 100 to 200 k dead but 2 million was ridiculous

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 8:17pm

Ok, this was not overblown, we need to remember that this is the first wave.   We don't have a vaccine and treatments are limited.  Eventually the totlal will rise and the numbers will rise.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 9:48pm

The over-reaction to this will be felt for many years, possibly decades. See my posts on the Police State thread.

Yeah, I think the Chicoms (CCP) used this on the world. Interesting signaling from US wanting to communicate directly with Wuhan lab. Did you hear the one about how the Chinese tried to sell back Italy's donated PPE?

The CCP is a threat to not only their own people, but the world.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 11:12pm

USA has about 3 000 000 deaths a year, which works out to just over 8 000 deaths a day.    The latest figure for deaths in one day from Corvid19 is over 1 700 -  This is not an extinction event, but neither is it a "power puff" - the balance is somewhere between the two.  


How else to measure it?  The USA has had a relatively high population growth rate when compared to other industrial countries, and its population figures were growing by about 2 700 souls a day, so at this current rate for corvid19 the country will not see a population reduction - however, the daily numbers are growing so we need to wait a bit longer to see how this will turn out.


There is also almost no chance than the confirmed deaths for covid19 will be less than the estimated deaths from flu for this year (currently at 24 000 according to the CDC)  - so I am sure this will prove to be worse than the flu, but will that be by say a factor of 2 or of 200?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 1:00am

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

So we trashed our economy for what?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/coronavirus-reaction-overblown-132242

Expert: No. It’s warranted. This is because we don’t know how this epidemic is going to pan out. So even if the case fatality risk is very low, if a high percentage of a population becomes infected that low fatality risk could result in a large number of deaths.

...I'm an expert and I could have written this.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 5:22am

two remarks;

1. On a global scale Covid19 is out of control, soon BILLIONS of people (Africa, (mix with 25% of popp. HIV+)South Asia, Latin America) will have to make a choice between "dying at home or seek safety were they hope to find it" (EU, US). [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/08/coronavirus-biggest-humanitarian-disaster-since-wwii-red-cross[/url];

According to Frido Herinckx, who coordinates global relief efforts for the International Red Cross, this disaster is different than anything we've seen before. "A 'normal' disaster is confined, such as an earthquake in a specific area. Then we, for example, send mobile hospitals and help to one place. But at the moment, the whole world is facing the same crisis and it is questionable whether others can send help."

The impact on a country like the Netherlands, with its high quality healthcare system, is already enormous, Herinckx said. "It is hard to imagine what happens if the virus also gains a foothold in areas where hospitals have been destroyed and where basic things like clean water and soap are not available. Let alone intensive care beds and respiratory equipment." In the north of Mali, for example, over 90 percent of all medical facilities were destroyed in conflict. "How can we expect them to test and treat people with the coronavirus?"

2.In the US [url]https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/coronavirus-wreaks-havoc-in-african-american-neighborhoods[/url] racial tension will explode.

We are only at the beginning of the crisis-the end is years away !!!! [url]https://www.euromomo.eu/[/url] for realistic statistics on mortality 

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 6:25am

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Expert: No. It’s warranted. This is because we don’t know how this epidemic is going to pan out. So even if the case fatality risk is very low, if a high percentage of a population becomes infected that low fatality risk could result in a large number of deaths.


Paraphrased, but I said this very thing on another thread.  If the RO is 4% higher than seasonal flu, it simply makes sense that even if the CFR is comparable to seasonal flu, we'll see more deaths.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Touchoftheblues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 12:36pm

How is this considered overblown? South Koreas stats tell the story. Of resolved cases, the fatality rate is 3% as it stands. If allowed to overwhelm hospitals, 3% is a minimum. You can punch in the math for whatever percent of the population you think might get infected but everything point to a high r0. The fact is, without strong mitigation this would absolutely have been much worse. I don’t think 2m in the US is unrealistic at all. Imagine that state of reality and picture what the economy would look like.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kaye kaye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 2:29pm

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

So we trashed our economy for what?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/coronavirus-reaction-overblown-132242


Yes it's overblown.  People need to prepare for a more serious crisis.  The WHO makes statements about taking

family members out of the home for quarantine.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCyqcoC747o&feature=emb_title 


keep the joy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 4:43pm

Just like China.

I'm not participating in this destruction of liberty, the economy, and everyone's lives and future for some bullshit hypothetical mass panic seized upon by fascists. 

People are being ARRESTED for simply walking alone in a park, and you need "papers" from your employer to travel to and from work ONLY or otherwise. It's batshit insane.

So called "experts' are part of the problem, they still don't know the denominator OR how many actual deaths will eventually result from their 12-18 month draconian economic destruction 'solutions'. When they can tell me that, I'll listen.

This certainly is a pandemic. It's certainly going to lead to large number of deaths, whether sooner or later. We need to accept this, and discuss rational solutions, not panic-driven overreations. Complete lockdowns are unsustainable. I read an estimate that already this has cost over $60 Trillion worldwide. No corner on Earth has been unaffected. Countries may collapse into debt spirals, mass migration, riots, wars, are increasignly possible.

But hey, the stawk market is back up! All it took was the annihilation of our currency, full on nationalization of all businesses (Fed buying corp. bonds, other sheninigans that clearly spelled out to the world our government is beholden to Fraud Street, and a nice sly introduction to martial law and total corporate Marxism (privatized profits, and public losses).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 5:06pm

“Of course the people don’t want war [DISEASE]. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.  That is easy.  All you have to do is tell them  they are being attacked [BY A VIRUS], and denounce the pacifists [CRITICAL THINKERS] for lack of patriotism,[RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE] and exposing the country to greater danger.”

— Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/war-games/

Pretty soon, the panic play won't work anymore.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 7:34pm

And because I try to be iintellectually honest as much as possible, here is a high-quality opposing viewpoint that makes a lof of very strong arguments.

However, it still cannot say with much certainty from data (other than limited examples) about the denominator in CFR. Suggests it could be 1.2 to 1.9 at the lowest. However, I have failed to see convincing evidence of the rPCR accuracy of testing, given presymptomatic and asymptomatic cases. Given Fauci's 50% figure, would halve that to 0.6 to 0.9. If using Italian town as an example, something the author conveniently left out, of 50-75% would cut it by 75%, giving us a 0.3% to 0.475%.  Clearly, clearly more data is needed. So why haven't we made that a priority? A good question, but when fear is being peddled, don't let logic or facts get in the way...

https://theprepared.com/blog/think-its-time-to-sacrifice-lives-to-reopen-the-economy-youre-wrong-about-covid-19s-fatality-rate/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorne! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 8:41pm

The estimates of lower fatalities are all through July/August. . . .not the end of the pandemic, which is predicted to be 12-18 months. All the experts I've read agree that herd immunity needs to be 70-80% of the population.


Here is some back of the napkin math, so please correct my errors. Today on Worldometer U.S. deaths stand at 14,795. If we go back two weeks to the 24th of March there were 55,196 cases. Lets assume there are 10x that many cases so, 551,960. That gives an IFR of 2.6%. 75% of the U.S. population (lets say 330,000,000) is 247,500,000. 2.6% of that number is 6,435,000 by the time the pandemic is over.


Current estimates in Europe are between 1-2% of the population has been infected. Just for fun lets say 2% of the U.S. population has been infected as of today. That is 6,620,000. with 14,796  deaths (based on what I've read deaths are being undercounted, but lets go with what we are being told) that is an IFR of .24% That would indicate 595,800 deaths by the end of the pandemic.

Also read a study today out of China that found a significant number of recovered patients showed 1/3 of them had low or no antibodies a few months later, much like the coronaviruses that cause the common cold (hence no vaccine for the common cold).

Maybe hydroxychloroquine and zinc will help, maybe not. It is contraindicated for many people.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 10:12pm

Originally posted by Thorne! Thorne! wrote:

The estimates of lower fatalities are all through July/August. . . .not the end of the pandemic, which is predicted to be 12-18 months. All the experts I've read agree that herd immunity needs to be 70-80% of the population.


Here is some back of the napkin math, so please correct my errors. Today on Worldometer U.S. deaths stand at 14,795. If we go back two weeks to the 24th of March there were 55,196 cases. Lets assume there are 10x that many cases so, 551,960. That gives an IFR of 2.6%. 75% of the U.S. population (lets say 330,000,000) is 247,500,000. 2.6% of that number is 6,435,000 by the time the pandemic is over.


Current estimates in Europe are between 1-2% of the population has been infected. Just for fun lets say 2% of the U.S. population has been infected as of today. That is 6,620,000. with 14,796  deaths (based on what I've read deaths are being undercounted, but lets go with what we are being told) that is an IFR of .24% That would indicate 595,800 deaths by the end of the pandemic.

Also read a study today out of China that found a significant number of recovered patients showed 1/3 of them had low or no antibodies a few months later, much like the coronaviruses that cause the common cold (hence no vaccine for the common cold).

Maybe hydroxychloroquine and zinc will help, maybe not. It is contraindicated for many people.



I have had a big concern about this virus being like the common cold...coming back year after year with no vaccine.  Now if it does not mutate then a vaccine will work but if it mutates we may be screwed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 10:17pm

Yes, it sucks. Deaths sooner or later. No vaccine, no treatment.  

And, if I haven't beaten this horse enough, a largely self-inflicted financial nuclear 10,000 kiloton MIRV attack has hit the US, and the world, and I really don't think I'm being too over-dramatic.  People are starting to stop payment on rent, their mortgages, credit cards, etc. There is no certainty that those who've kept their jobs will still have them. Other countries are likely going to fair much worse without a central bank turning on the money spigot (delayed and less than promised as it is).

Another month of this, a full-scale economic depression awaits.  Incalculable costs, unrecoverable for many for years. This will lead to many sad effects. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 5:28am

What was the alternative, Babycat?  I'd really like to know what we could have done that would not have lead to the economic damage you decry?  With hospitals already overrun and no preparation, what could we have done differently?  If we would like to see the CFR for this thing go through the roof, we can just let our HCWs work with no PPE, then see what happens when otherwise survivable injuries and illnesses come along.  I hate the loss of businesses and wealth as much as anyone else.  I have taken some financial losses as well, and fully expect that what I have left will be inflated away longterm.  Stories of hunger that are emerging break my heart.  Make no mistake, the consequences of this disease will be felt by future generations.  I just don't think there was a better answer that we could consider civilised.  What good is freedom in a world where we are uncivilised?  There has to be a balance, otherwise we live in anarchy.  That is not a world I want my grandchildren growing up in, because in a world like that longterm freedom is not guaranteed either.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 5:56am

Originally posted by BabyCat BabyCat wrote:

Yes, it sucks. Deaths sooner or later. No vaccine, no treatment.  

And, if I haven't beaten this horse enough, a largely self-inflicted financial nuclear 10,000 kiloton MIRV attack has hit the US, and the world, and I really don't think I'm being too over-dramatic.  People are starting to stop payment on rent, their mortgages, credit cards, etc. There is no certainty that those who've kept their jobs will still have them. Other countries are likely going to fair much worse without a central bank turning on the money spigot (delayed and less than promised as it is).

Another month of this, a full-scale economic depression awaits.  Incalculable costs, unrecoverable for many for years. This will lead to many sad effects. 

BC - what would you have people do, "go back to work?"  Doesn't work that way - all major US companies now have restrictions on office hours, bank lobby services etc.  They do this to protect their workers and to mitigate their own risks, such as lawsuits from workers who might be infected. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-hit-wrongful-death-lawsuit-employee-dies-covid/story?id=70040675

The economy will re-start when the major employers say it will.  In the meantime, I'm seeing a great deal of productivity from workers at home, this is likely a permanent feature of society.  Office buildings, dry cleaners, commuting etc. may become obsolete.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 6:11am

Interesting comment  DrCRP.   Yes I have noticed that alot of people are starting to realize they can work from home who never thought it possible. Many just didn’t want to  believe the internet can handle the traffic. Some are realizing that child care costs and commutes are not worrh the hassle and they love  being around for their kids.  I think we are going to see a major shift in our society 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Newbie1A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 7:35am

QUOTE- CRS - 

 

The economy will re-start when the major employers say it will.  In the meantime, I'm seeing a great deal of productivity from workers at home, this is likely a permanent feature of society.  Office buildings, dry cleaners, commuting etc. may become obsolete.

     CRS, DrPH 

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

Interesting comment  DrCRP.   Yes I have noticed that alot of people are starting to realize they can work from home who never thought it possible. Many just didn’t want to  believe the internet can handle the traffic. Some are realizing that child care costs and commutes are not worrh the hassle and they love  being around for their kids.  I think we are going to see a major shift in our society 

I pray you two are correct - I watched this yesterday (or day before - losing track of time) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18NUtGilAzY

The silver lining out of all this may just be a much healthier planet and hopefully a much less consumer driven ('stuff' being replaced by family/love) world.  We'll see.  

If it's to be - it's up to me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 8:39am

I don't have any answers. Every option is bad. Some are just worse than others.

I'm just heartbroken all around. I know it's easy to criticize 

Stick, belt, wrench. We just have to accept there will be significant deaths no matter our choices, and discuss openly a prudent balance, as morbid and callous as that sounds.   I think it is unreasonable to try to minimize short-term deaths without consideration if other factors which could likely lead to as much as, if not worse, effects, including deaths.We are just buying time, but again, wasting it like we did after China announced.

Perhaps my constructive point should be this. We haven't put near enough effort to develop a reasonable plan for companies, people to find a balance. No plans for large scale testing, no plans for mandatory masks (surgical/procdure masks are super cheap to make, quick to produce), identification of best use of resources (protecting food supply/distribution, instead of financial instruments), etc. 

Look, the Fed is buying everything but equities, all in. Already $12 trillion, I  last month, $40,000 for everyone in US. Seeing anything close to that for you yet? Misplaced priorities. How much of that is going to mask production, testing (antibody, especially), and determination of attack rate, iCFR, prevalence, etc. so we can base policy on real data, not guesses and models that are inherently unreliable. Garbage in, garbage out, data wise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 8:55am

We should be having a massive effort for testing, a Manhattan Project to sample, analyze and monitor disease prevalence, develop antibody and testing for all, new procedures for isolation of vulnerable, mandatory masks provided by government, etc. None of this is happening yet. No large scale contact tracing or mandatory public identification of case locations like SK either. No one knows anything. We are responding blindly, and a balance hasn't been seen yet. I will look at Ecuador as a possible model. Impossible to test in mass, people need to work to eat, too poor a country for everyone to get a check, but people will make reasonable trade-offs and decisions on a personal level.  People don't have luxury to telecommute.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorne! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 1:17pm

Can somebody see an error in my "back of a napkin" post above? Like I said, the lower fatality numbers are through July or some such, not through the pandemic. The Imperial College and Lancet studies were through the end of the pandemic. Big difference there. . . .


Edited to add: Fauci is still saying 60k deaths. . . but does not give a time frame. What do you think? Total for the pandemic, or through July like the Univ. of Washington studies time frame.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 2:48pm

Originally posted by Thorne! Thorne! wrote:

Can somebody see an error in my "back of a napkin" post above? Like I said, the lower fatality numbers are through July or some such, not through the pandemic. The Imperial College and Lancet studies were through the end of the pandemic. Big difference there. . . .


Edited to add: Fauci is still saying 60k deaths. . . but does not give a time frame. What do you think? Total for the pandemic, or through July like the Univ. of Washington studies time frame.

A few days ago, I plotted out a curve that estimated 35-45,000 total US deaths total through June due to Sars2-nCov-2019, equivalent to a slightly elevated ILI season. I didn't post it. I was going to counter the 100-260 figure as fear mongering and govt using it for control and credit for success when lower, but decided against it I also think that overall mortality rates will significantly shrink overall (less accidents, etc) during this martial law period. But once we out out of government curfew, deaths will rebound and increase, because of a severe recession (at the least), and a possible rebound in cases, leading to rolling lockdowns again, because the authorities in most countries still won't have their shit together to provide population level testing or reasonable plans. I believe the evidence that of a highly transmissble but less lethal virus could lead to significant political instability, and so it will be discouraged, or buried.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 3:03pm

Babycat, how old are you?

You are suggesting that we should just let the virus run it's course, but are you prepared to gamble with your life and risk death to resume a normal life? Or are you planning to allow the rest of America to risk it and you will stay SIP? I've asked you if you'll risk it before but you didn't answer. So I'm asking you personally again - will you risk possible death in an attempt to save the economy?

You can't fix stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 4:14pm

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

Babycat, how old are you?

You are suggesting that we should just let the virus run it's course, but are you prepared to gamble with your life and risk death to resume a normal life? Or are you planning to allow the rest of America to risk it and you will stay SIP? I've asked you if you'll risk it before but you didn't answer. So I'm asking you personally again - will you risk possible death in an attempt to save the economy?

I'm fine. Thanks. This question is based on a false assumption/premise. I'm not suggesting allowing the Big Burn. I'm suggesting finding a balance between unreasonable, disproportionate shutdown and actual data and science. It is not do I choose money over life. And, for that matter, money provides a way for people to LIVE, to eat, etc. Also, the data is spotty, and being used to peddle fear in my opinion. Life is not a guarantee. I will take all reasonable precautions for myself, my family, and society at large. But not to the extent where we all need to cower in fear like little rabbits and give up EVERYTHING and ALL POWER to a authorities that have not shown it has our best interests in mind. Again, the pandemic is real. Many people have died and will die. There are still many unknowns. Are we really trying to find out about them with the same sense of urgency in saving the stock market? But, we have choices on our responses. I also think we are being lied to about it in many important ways.

"Those who would trade essential freedom for a little temporary security deserve neither"

I know Kiwis like you are under one of the world's most stringent lockdown, for perhaps the most minimal cases. Was it justified? We will see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 4:30pm

Unemployment rate is about 10% right now. I believe it was about 2% before this "soft" lockdown. Hopefully those who have to collect unemployment while sitting on the couch can handle this while the rest of the population keeps the country operating. There's no room for whiners while we try to figure out a solution. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 4:35pm

ha, ha, yes, no whining. Need to figure out a solution. I've made more than several suggestions.

Let me know if the authorities try any one of them any time soon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 4:43pm

Discussing opening the US in May, but lack most effective public health intervention measures.,

Masks? Nah.

Serollogical testing? Nah.

Maybe a little tracing and surveillance. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-officials-lay-groundwork-for-may-reopening/ar-BB12otN7?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nc_girl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 6:21pm

Totally agree with babycat on this as I learn more about Dr Fauci and Dr Birx and the whole history of the vaccine mafia.  I do feel that the globalist may have a hand in this to push their agenda and control of us sheep.

never thought I'd be here but after just a little investigation and a lot of common sense...here I am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 8:59pm

Originally posted by nc_girl nc_girl wrote:

Totally agree with babycat on this as I learn more about Dr Fauci and Dr Birx and the whole history of the vaccine mafia.  I do feel that the globalist may have a hand in this to push their agenda and control of us sheep.

never thought I'd be here but after just a little investigation and a lot of common sense...here I am

Check out my latest post "Not a CV..."...prepare to be blown away. 

https://truepundit.com/exclusive-top-feds-not-a-coronavirus-that-came-from-a-bat-something-much-worse/

If this is true, and people don't get off their asses and demand change, I don't know what ever will.

Fauci beholden to vax cos, Redfield and assistant Birx investigated by FBI for PERJURY and false studies in NEJM  regarding HIV vaccine they say worked! They are a menace to the public, and somehow they end up in charge??? We are being played!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 9:13pm

Ok, we do know that opening up too soon will lead to more cases.  here is the issue,  we are dammed if we do, dammed if we don't, situation here.  What I am seeing hers is the what if brigade.  i can tell you what would happen if we had no stay at home orders.  massive death and massive suffering, social dislocation and rioting.  The lower death rate so far is a cause to celebrate.  We need to keep our eyes on the prize.  This is a long term struggle that will last into the fall and winter.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 9:21pm

Originally posted by ME163 ME163 wrote:

Ok, we do know that opening up too soon will lead to more cases.  here is the issue,  we are dammed if we do, dammed if we don't, situation here.  What I am seeing hers is the what if brigade.  i can tell you what would happen if we had no stay at home orders.  massive death and massive suffering, social dislocation and rioting.  The lower death rate so far is a cause to celebrate.  We need to keep our eyes on the prize.  This is a long term struggle that will last into the fall and winter.   

Prove it. Show me the evidence for your conclusions, please.

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Originally posted by BabyCat BabyCat wrote:

I'm fine. Thanks. This question is based on a false assumption/premise. I'm not suggesting allowing the Big Burn. I'm suggesting finding a balance between unreasonable, disproportionate shutdown and actual data and science. It is not do I choose money over life. And, for that matter, money provides a way for people to LIVE, to eat, etc. Also, the data is spotty, and being used to peddle fear in my opinion. Life is not a guarantee. I will take all reasonable precautions for myself, my family, and society at large. But not to the extent where we all need to cower in fear like little rabbits and give up EVERYTHING and ALL POWER to a authorities that have not shown it has our best interests in mind. Again, the pandemic is real. Many people have died and will die. There are still many unknowns. Are we really trying to find out about them with the same sense of urgency in saving the stock market? But, we have choices on our responses. I also think we are being lied to about it in many important ways.

"Those who would trade essential freedom for a little temporary security deserve neither"

I know Kiwis like you are under one of the world's most stringent lockdown, for perhaps the most minimal cases. Was it justified? We will see.

But you haven't answered the question: would you be happy to go back to work, and to go back into society in the way you did before all this? Or do you want the rest of society to be up and running, but plan on personally isolating further, just in case?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but there are a lot of calls for restrictions to ease up, and these are being made solely to try and stave off an economic depression the likes of which none of us have seen before. But this disease is still a killer, and it's still in its infancy, and we still know so little about it. My question is, are any of the people who are calling for restrictions to be listed actually willing to go back out there and risk their own personal health to save the economy. Personally, I"m not. No one, regardless of age, is guaranteed a mild dose of this virus, and anyone of us could potentially be killed by it. 

Of course in an ideal world, everyone else would go out there and get it, herd immunity would develop and the economy would keep struggling along, and all the time we'd be holed up in our own safe self isolation bubble until the all clear was sounded. But we don't live in an ideal world. So are you personally prepared to risk it?

You can't fix stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 12:00am

Yes.

 At the moment, not afraid of dying.  Life is wonderful and precious, but we all should understand we must all die someday.  I don't have a "death wish" but I do understand facts, logic, and common sense. There is no minimum level of risk in anything. Driving a car, whatever. I wear my seat belt, try to drive safely, train myself, etc. but sometimes a crash happens and there is nothing I can do to avoid it. I didn't choose to live through a pandemic at my age, but I simply don't have a choice in the matter. I can minimize risk as much as possible, but not to the point where I become a hermit and run away for three years. Life, to me, is simply not meant to be lived like that. This is the realm of philosophy, and poetry, and humankind's best writers, and I can't do it justice enough, but you get the point. A life well-lived.

 I cannot choose not to die, however, I can choose how to live. Bravely, if simply being brave means stepping out the front door.

I would certainly try to minimize risk to myself and others, wear a mask, take reasonable precautions, but ultimately I may become infected. The risk at this point cannot be reduced to zero, and it is simply wishful thinking it can. Humans have survived pandemics before and we will survive this one soon enough. What are we going to do - hide in our houses for two years while everyone else lives their lives as best and safely as they can? Please.

Firefighters rushing into a burning building, ICU nurses in COVID-19 ward. Brave, by choice, not reckless nor love life any less.

There is something nagging me, which is, what a perfect time to engineer a literal coup. Everyone hiding in their homes furing a pandemic which may have been engineered...who's going to stop them, or even understand what's happening in plain sight



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keep the joy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 1:25am

Fauci goes, and we’ll have nobody on the task force with any credentials prepared to correct Trump when he puts his own spin on things. Birx, Verma and Adams seem reluctant to step up and do it, and I’ve yet to hear Ben Carson say anything about the virus.

If there had been no mandatory social distancing, we’d be having a very different conversation.




"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Originally posted by BabyCat BabyCat wrote:

Prove it. Show me the evidence for your conclusions, please.


Come to the tri-state area.  

Look, I get what you're saying. But you're ignoring the fact that lives are at stake here. The infection rate is huge compared to the flu even though the CFR can be construed as comparable. The best idea, I think, is to get wide-spread rapid testing and antibody testing to determine who can go back to work. Although I have issue with some of the ideas on how to register those workers who are infection free / immune.

The fact is we may never get a vaccine. But we don't even have a viable treatment yet.  Open up before that and we are screwed.   It's true that many will not die of this disease, but hospitals are being overwhelmed.  Its a clue that we're not behind the curve yet enough to be proactive instead of reactive, if I may put that rhetoric out there.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazelpad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 5:07am

Scientific UK starting to plan exit strategy.

Quote from BBC

"adviser Prof Neil Ferguson, who was asked about coming out after lockdown said  it would likely be done on age group and location.

 

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Hazelpad. Love what the Brits have in mind but would prefer an antibodies test to help clearly see what is going on to protect our first responders

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote ClapBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 7:24am

I just love all these people who say, "I'll just take precautions" while they are demanding others work in a healthcare environment with a constant high viral load for endless months.

Even with good protection, 20 percent of cases are healthcare workers. And you want to maintain that until natural immunity...

It's going be funny when all these people get to the hospital after taking precautions for 5 months - finally getting exposed - and find out no one's there because the people they counted on to just suck it up and work in a constant high viral load environment - and wait for them to finally be exposed - left their job months prior to their arrival.

Babycat

How about you assume you are a ER doc ( or nurse ) and then answer FluMom's question 

You are so worried about everyone else's job ( and money ) that you haven't realized that - when you try to save those jobs - you are forcing people out of what are, currently, society's most vital jobs. The people you just rely on being there; just sitting there waiting for you and yours...

Take a swing at FluMom's question under 2 circumstances

1) that during your "I'll take all the precautions" life, you are a ER doc

2) What you are going to do when - 5 months from now and your precautions failed - you or a member of your clan is in respiratory compromise and you get the hospital only to find they all quit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 7:27am

Sigh.   Dr. Carson has it about right. 

Hysteria is also a problem.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-ben-carson-coronavirus-recoveries-98-percent

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClapBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 7:31am

Answer the question.

Stop deflecting

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