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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

So was this all overblown? Media frenzy

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BabyCat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabyCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 7:42am

I thought I did.

This is starting to sound like a cult or echo chamber. 

I'm out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ClapBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 8:04am

Let's talk about the gals who work in the nursing homes and make right above minimum wage while they do.

Now, obviously, we want to keep it out of nursing homes during the save-other-people's-money plan, right?

Children are known to be silent spreaders.

So, to address and break the chain of silent super spreader abilty of children in groups, are these gals supposed to give up their children or are their children supposed to give up education?

Because if the plan is to allow this to frequently circulate, limit spread, and try to chase it with whack-a-mole - and doing so with hopes that the less vulnerable can build a herd immunity to protect the vulnerable - it's going to result in these type of situations needing to be addressed. Are we going to just hope they sacrifice every other part of their life or mandate it?

So which is it? Breaking their relationship with their children or denying their children's right to education?

The save-other-people's-money plan silently comes with healthcare providers just accepting they are going to work in high risk situations for endless months. And the other part of that plan that no one mentions but logically - ( and either consciously or unconsciously ) - stipulates is that it also requires healthcare providers to do this while they also break family ties with their vulnerable and with anyone in their life who can spread it to the vulnerable. It's that or that they live with the guilt of causing death after death after death ..

Yeah, they are going to do that - and do it just to save other people's money - instead of just quitting their jobs. Sure Jan...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 11:28am

Ben Carson needs to leave his cozy office at HUD and spend some time in an ER or ICU in one of the areas hardest hit. The guy is clueless.



"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 1:07pm

So true Jack sdad

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 1:51pm

Originally posted by ClapBack ClapBack wrote:

I just love all these people who say, "I'll just take precautions" while they are demanding others work in a healthcare environment with a constant high viral load for endless months.

Even with good protection, 20 percent of cases are healthcare workers. And you want to maintain that until natural immunity...

It's going be funny when all these people get to the hospital after taking precautions for 5 months - finally getting exposed - and find out no one's there because the people they counted on to just suck it up and work in a constant high viral load environment - and wait for them to finally be exposed - left their job months prior to their arrival.

Babycat

How about you assume you are a ER doc ( or nurse ) and then answer FluMom's question 

You are so worried about everyone else's job ( and money ) that you haven't realized that - when you try to save those jobs - you are forcing people out of what are, currently, society's most vital jobs. The people you just rely on being there; just sitting there waiting for you and yours...

Take a swing at FluMom's question under 2 circumstances

1) that during your "I'll take all the precautions" life, you are a ER doc

2) What you are going to do when - 5 months from now and your precautions failed - you or a member of your clan is in respiratory compromise and you get the hospital only to find they all quit.

How is the danger for nurses and Doctors any different than say being in the military, or law enforcement, or a fire fighter or other high risk occupations? Everyone makes the choice to be in those occupations, they are not forced. And every one of those occupations takes steps to minimize the risks accordingly. Some run from danger, some run to danger but all know the risks associated with their occupation and they choose to do so willingly.

And from a historical perspective your assumption that all the health care professionals will quit is just fear mongering as past pandemics clearly show that was not the case.

Pandemic flu of 1918 approx 25 million infected with the flu estimated 675,000 died. Nurses and doctors didn't quit.

Pandemic flu of 1957 approx 43 million infected with the flu estimated 116,000 died. Nurses and doctors didn't quit.

Pandemic flu of 1968 approx infected unknown  estimated 70,000 died. Nurses and doctors didn't quit.

And I could go back further in history to illustrate the point.

And in all of those pandemics the world went about their business of living life but with certain precautions. This event will be and should be no different. Life will go on, precautions will be taken but the world isn't going to stop living as a result of the virus. 

And the reality is there may never be an effective vaccine and hope may lie only in a as of yet to be discovered treatment of the symptoms of COVID and taking precautions. But to think the world is going to stop and shut down until there is a vaccine is not really based in reality or history but rather an emotional response. Because history clearly shows the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. And this time will be no different.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 2:56pm

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

I am beginning to think China got us good. Maybe if we had just let it burn through it would have had 100 to 200 k dead but 2 million was ridiculous

I gave these calculations (Feb 2020) to MDs with the FBI before the UK group came out with theirs: 

US population is presently about 331 million souls. if about 1/3 of us are at highest risk for serious illness, the denominator is 100 million. CFR may be 2%, so 2 million might die from this one in the US.


2 Million deaths assumed NO mitigation steps at all.  However, if we terminate social distancing/mitigation, we could easily reach the original 500,000 that many predicted, and likely higher. 


There are untold mortalities from COVID-19 that were not properly identified as such - many cases were misdiagnosed as "pneumonia" or people died of secondary causes like cardiovascular.  Also, we are likely facing many deaths due to patients unable to access healthcare due to COVID-19 cases saturating the system. 


If you think the economics are bad now, let the US Govt lift restrictions and watch the mortality rate soar.  I guarantee it.  That could trigger a great depression vs. the recession we are facing.   Economies recover better than dead people. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thorne! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 3:05pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

I am beginning to think China got us good. Maybe if we had just let it burn through it would have had 100 to 200 k dead but 2 million was ridiculous

I gave these calculations (Feb 2020) to MDs with the FBI before the UK group came out with theirs: 

US population is presently about 331 million souls. if about 1/3 of us are at highest risk for serious illness, the denominator is 100 million. CFR may be 2%, so 2 million might die from this one in the US.


2 Million deaths assumed NO mitigation steps at all.  However, if we terminate social distancing/mitigation, we could easily reach the original 500,000 that many predicted, and likely higher. 


There are untold mortalities from COVID-19 that were not properly identified as such - many cases were misdiagnosed as "pneumonia" or people died of secondary causes like cardiovascular.  Also, we are likely facing many deaths due to patients unable to access healthcare due to COVID-19 cases saturating the system. 


If you think the economics are bad now, let the US Govt lift restrictions and watch the mortality rate soar.  I guarantee it.  That could trigger a great depression vs. the recession we are facing.   Economies recover better than dead people. 

I don't get how people keep thinking along this dichotomy of either people or economy. If 20% of the workforce is sick, or home caring for sick family members, how is the economy going to function then? The answer is it isn't.  If the healthcare system gets overwhelmed, and bodies pile up in makeshift morgues who thinks people are going to risk getting infected, bringing the infection home, or infecting older relatives or friends with comorbidities? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 3:25pm

So very true!  Just as someone said earlier we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 3:35pm

Originally posted by BabyCat BabyCat wrote:

Originally posted by nc_girl nc_girl wrote:

Totally agree with babycat on this as I learn more about Dr Fauci and Dr Birx and the whole history of the vaccine mafia.  I do feel that the globalist may have a hand in this to push their agenda and control of us sheep.

never thought I'd be here but after just a little investigation and a lot of common sense...here I am

Check out my latest post "Not a CV..."...prepare to be blown away. 

https://truepundit.com/exclusive-top-feds-not-a-coronavirus-that-came-from-a-bat-something-much-worse/

If this is true, and people don't get off their asses and demand change, I don't know what ever will.

Fauci beholden to vax cos, Redfield and assistant Birx investigated by FBI for PERJURY and false studies in NEJM  regarding HIV vaccine they say worked! They are a menace to the public, and somehow they end up in charge??? We are being played!

Garbage.  I have followed the genetics of SARS-CoV2 since the outbreak began.  

https://www.genengnews.com/news/coronavirus-evolved-naturally-and-is-not-a-laboratory-construct-genetic-study-shows/

This has more genetics for those of us who enjoy it:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 3:44pm

Originally posted by Thorne! Thorne! wrote:

I don't get how people keep thinking along this dichotomy of either people or economy. If 20% of the workforce is sick, or home caring for sick family members, how is the economy going to function then? The answer is it isn't.  If the healthcare system gets overwhelmed, and bodies pile up in makeshift morgues who thinks people are going to risk getting infected, bringing the infection home, or infecting older relatives or friends with comorbidities? 

Spot on. You're absolutely right. There is no way out of this one without the economy suffering, and there never was. Even if we were to go back to the beginning, whichever route you choose to take, the economy will suffer.

You can't fix stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 3:56pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

I am beginning to think China got us good. Maybe if we had just let it burn through it would have had 100 to 200 k dead but 2 million was ridiculous

I gave these calculations (Feb 2020) to MDs with the FBI before the UK group came out with theirs: 

US population is presently about 331 million souls. if about 1/3 of us are at highest risk for serious illness, the denominator is 100 million. CFR may be 2%, so 2 million might die from this one in the US.


2 Million deaths assumed NO mitigation steps at all.  However, if we terminate social distancing/mitigation, we could easily reach the original 500,000 that many predicted, and likely higher. 


There are untold mortalities from COVID-19 that were not properly identified as such - many cases were misdiagnosed as "pneumonia" or people died of secondary causes like cardiovascular.  Also, we are likely facing many deaths due to patients unable to access healthcare due to COVID-19 cases saturating the system. 


If you think the economics are bad now, let the US Govt lift restrictions and watch the mortality rate soar.  I guarantee it.  That could trigger a great depression vs. the recession we are facing.   Economies recover better than dead people. 

So your numbers are based on a 90.37% infection rate of the US and a 33% serious illness rate of those infected as defined as requiring hospitalization. How did you arrive at those numbers? Do you have any links to data that back up those numbers? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 4:18pm

I should add that I ask because the last week or so I have seen several articles relating that the percentage of asymptomatic cases might be much higher than previously thought. Such as this where the author claimed asymptomatic cases may account for 50 to 75% of COVID19 cases.  Obviously that would of course lower the number requiring hospitalization as well as the CFR but increase the infection rate.

An Italian academic has claimed striking evidence that most people infected with covid-19 show no symptoms but are still able to infect others, which he says has huge implications for testing policy, particularly in hospitals.

Sergio Romagnani, a professor of clinical immunology at the University of Florence, has reported how blanket testing in a completely isolated village of roughly 3000 people in northern Italy saw the number of people with covid-19 symptoms fall by over 90% within 10 days.

Vo’Euganeo, 50 km west of Venice, was closed off by authorities in mid-February, at which point repeat RNA testing of the entire population began. All those with positive tests were quarantined. The number of people sick from covid-19 fell from 88 to seven in less than 10 days, Romagnani reported.

In an open letter to the authorities in the Tuscany region,1 Romagnani wrote that the great majority of people infected with covid-19—50-75%—were asymptomatic, but represented “a formidable source” of contagion.

“The percentage of people infected, even if asymptomatic, in the population is very high and represents the majority of cases, particularly, but not only, among young people. Isolation of asymptomatics is essential for controlling the spread of the virus and the seriousness of the epidemic,” he said.

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1165

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You are going back in history and using pandemicscenarios where there wasn't another option then to work through it. Where options to avoid working in hell didn't exist. You can't do that. It wouldn't be true in this situation. I mean, the whole argument is based on the outcome of different options in how we approach what we now know we can control. The whole argument is are health care workers expendable for the sake of the economy. They are going to say no to that question. And if policy rejects that no, then they will quit.

If you think they won't quit when they are presented with a politcal policy that knowingly and intentionally creates a high viral load, low staffed, foreseeable negligent prone, just under capacity working environment when that environment is completely avoidable but is still pursued to save other people's money, you are very wrong.

They aren't going to risk both their nursing licenses and their and their family members lives just to save other people's money.

Nurses all over the country have already protested and those protests came about when they were tossed into the situation because of poor planning and the only option the country faced was working through it. Yet you think they are just going to suck it up when the planned policy is going to result in the same  hellish and dangerous working conditions...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 5:33pm

Originally posted by ClapBack ClapBack wrote:

You are going back in history and using pandemicscenarios where there wasn't another option then to work through it. Where options to avoid working in hell didn't exist. You can't do that. It wouldn't be true in this situation. I mean, the whole argument is based on the outcome of different options in how we approach what we now know we can control. The whole argument is are health care workers expendable for the sake of the economy. They are going to say no to that question. And if policy rejects that no, then they will quit.

If you think they won't quit when they are presented with a polical policy that knowingly and intentionally creates a high viral, low staffed, run just under capacity working environment when that environment is completely avoidable but is pursued to save other people's money, you are very wrong.

They aren't going to risk both their nursing licenses and their and their family members lives just to save other people's money.

Nurses all over the country have already protested and those protests came about when they were tossed into the situation because of poor planning and the only option the country faced was working through it. Yet you think they are just going to suck it up when the planned policy is going to result in the same  hellish and dangerous working conditions...

Just like then they are going to have to work through it and do their jobs. This virus isn't just going to go away, everyone is going to have to deal with the fact it's here to stay. There may or may not be a vaccine in a year or two. Shall we shutter the country for a year or two? And jurisdictions such as South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore have succeeded in controlling their infection rate without resorting to lock downs. It is not reasonable to assume voluntary steps such as limiting social contacts, avoiding crowds, paying extra attention to personal hygiene ect would not have a significant effect of reducing the infection rate. As they clearly have been shown to. It would take people actually being responsible for their actions that might be too much to ask though. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClapBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 6:25pm

Lemme ask ya this Al.

Are having concerts,; opening professional and college sports stadiums; lighting up the Vegas strip and casinos; and don't other things like,say, resuming large business conferences where most of the attendees travel in from all over part of your open-back plan pre-vaccine?

Or are you just talking a few guys having a beer at the local bar?

EDIT - I am aware of the complexity of a vaccine and understand it could either be a long way off/may not be possible. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 6:52pm

Originally posted by ClapBack ClapBack wrote:

Lemme ask ya this Al.

Are having concerts,; opening professional and college sports stadiums; lighting up the Vegas strip and casinos; and don't other things like,say, resuming large business conferences where most of the attendees travel in from all over part of your open-back plan pre-vaccine?

Or are you just talking a few guys having a beer at the local bar?

EDIT - I am aware of the complexity of a vaccine and understand it could either be a long way off/may not be possible. 


I think conditions on the ground will decide what is called for and what can be done. The key will be finding the balance and that may have to be adjustable as the situation dictates. There is a permissible loss associated with the COVID19 just like there is permissible loss associated with the flu every year, that is unavoidable. It's the world we live in it has viruses and bacteria that do us harm, now it just has one more. People will have to adapt and change behaviors that will be the hard part. But they will, they always do.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 8:10pm

Certainly us homo sapiens rule the earth and we will conquer this too with our combined intellect.  That said we are in for a rough ride

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Newbie1A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 9:07pm

Interesting video from an ICU nurse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgea5o3ALU

If it's to be - it's up to me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClapBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2020 at 10:07pm

Al,

Thank you for your answer. I think what you said is fair enough

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Perhaps what some governments are failing to realise is that health care workers can, if they choose, walk off the job. They are not members of the armed services who can be court marshalled for disobeying an order or for going awol. Doctors and nurses are free to stay home if they want. If governments push them too far, fail after repeated requests to provide adequate PPE, or force them to really dance with danger all for a fairly inconsequential pay cheque, then they might just decide not to come in. And they'll be nothing that the governments will be able to do to force them. 

A nurse on my cousin's team in an NHS hospital in the UK has just died from it. All in the name of her job.

You can't fix stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2020 at 5:41am

Originally posted by Newbie1A Newbie1A wrote:

Interesting video from an ICU nurse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgea5o3ALU

I'm having a hard time believing that person is a nurse.  She got too much wrong about how things work.  First, you absolutely do test someone in hospice in a care home if they are symptomatic.   If you don't it spreads like a brushfire.  A nurse should know that.   Second, a person gets certified for hospice when they have a terminal disease with the likelihood that they will die sometime in the next year.  If they do not die, they can get recertified if their condition still meets certain criteria.  Hospice in itself does not mean that death is imminent, nor does it mean that their remaining time is without value.  If covid 19 takes that person's life it is cause of death.  Period.  The doctor cannot ethically call it something it was not.  The "nurse" also does not seem to understand the concept of "novel virus" or who that circumvents the immune system.  The frequent policy changes thing is legit.  I say the person maybe works in a hospital or knows someone who does, but does not understand what is happening.

Edited to add:  Longterm care patients are actually prioritized for Covid 19 testing.  We get our results back in about 24 hours.  I don't see how a professional nurse could think there is wiggle room on cause of death to fit a particular worldview.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2020 at 6:32am

I can't comment with regards to COD in any American state, but over here, if covid19 is part of the cause COD is attributed to THE OTHER factors.

I have seen the mass graves in NY, the horror in Wuhan, Italy, Spain and London.

Sorry!   I don't believe a word of it either.

ERCD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2020 at 7:07am

It would help if there was some universal classification of secondary diagnoses.  Accurate data would help everyone form better policy.  I have taken care of people who spent years on hospice.

Edited to add:  The US standard for primary diagnosis is what the patient was hospitalized for in the first place.  If there are comorbidities that effect care, that is a secondary diagnosis.  Likewise, if a patient was hospitalized for something like surgery and acquired a viral infection while hospitalized, the viral infection is secondary.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2020 at 2:53pm

I found a beautiful quote:

Don't unbuckle your parachute just because it's slowing your descent nicely.  Wait till you are on the ground.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kaye kaye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2020 at 1:17pm

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/04/are-vast-majority-of-covid-cases-asymptomatic.php


ARE VAST MAJORITY OF COVID CASES ASYMPTOMATIC?

From studies in prisons in four states comes a remarkable conclusion: as many as 95% of COVID-19 cases may produce no symptoms:

As mass coronavirus testing expands in prisons, large numbers of inmates are showing no symptoms. In four state prison systems — Arkansas, North Carolina, Ohio and Virginia — 96% of 3,277 inmates who tested positive for the coronavirus were asymptomatic, according to interviews with officials and records reviewed by Reuters.

keep the joy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2020 at 3:59pm

I thought that you would be interested in this story I found on MSN: Doctors in London alerted to 'coronavirus-related condition' emerging in children http://a.msn.com/05/en-gb/BB13gDSN?ocid=se


I think we still don’t know enough about asymtomatics

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