Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese  Click to Translate to Myanmar (Burmese)

PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
123456
Forum Home Forum Home > Main Forums > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Type of exposure and initial viral load?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Type of exposure and initial viral load?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
DeepThinker View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: September 26 2015
Location: So. California
Status: Offline
Points: 3245
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepThinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Type of exposure and initial viral load?
    Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:30am

Does how you are exposed to the virus make a difference in outcome?

I have a theory that I think helps explain the wide variance in outcomes among individuals and also from one geographic region and the next.

If you are exposed by your hands touching your face... I think you are likely to have the infection start in  your eye or nose.   If it starts there I think your immune system has time to react to it before  it settles into the lungs.

If you are exposed by aerosol I think the infection would start in the lungs, and by the time your immune system reacts.... there is already significant damage.  I also think that you then become a vector for aerosol infection for others.   In some instances I think toliet flushing also leads to aerosols, and this helps explain why nursing homes are so bad.

Also  think if you are only exposed to a few virus particles,  they may not be particularly hardy, or not well adapted to your body.   However if you are exposed to a large number, you are much more likely to get a stronger more well adapted virus strain.

I think in areas where you have a low levels of virus spread, when you are exposed it is more likely a very small contact exposure.   However when the virus starts spreading well, you get more severe infections, that leads to more and more other severe infections.   So maybe by just slowing the spread.... the people that do get sick will get less sick.

To the experts out there do my thoughts have any validity?



Back to Top
ViQueen24 View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: May 14 2013
Location: Verona, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 12270
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:34am

I don't know for sure, DT, but on the off-chance of that being true, I do a nasal wash after I have been out.

Back to Top
Flubergasted View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member


Joined: February 04 2020
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2130
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:58am

I had similar thoughts when we heard about young doctors in China dying from it.  It just didn't make sense that these young healthy doctors were dying, when we were told most of the dying were old and sick.  I wondered then if it was the amount of virus they were encountering, that their bodies just could not combat the deluge of insult.  One of the doctors that died made the comment he thought he was exposed through his eyes.  It is hard to say, and I think most experts are baffled by the behavior of this virus.

Back to Top
Technophobe View Drop Down
Assistant Admin
Assistant Admin
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2014
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 88450
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 12:35pm

Conventional wisdom says that the number of viral particles you are originally infected with helps determine the outcome of an infection.  A few particles and you get immunity before the infection overruns everything.  Tens of thousands and your body is overwhelmed before your immune system has time to catch up.  The patients in intensive care units are huge viral factories.

I see no reason why your theory should interfere with that.  They could both be true.

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Location: Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 26660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 1:03pm

You are thinking like a clinical virologist, good job!  Higher dose nearly always results in more fulminant infection, although some viruses are so evil that only a few are enough to cause disease. 

Our HC workers really get it in the face when dealing with sick patients....ventilated patients exude vast quantities of lung fluids & other infectious debris which can contaminate the entire room.  

Please see this article:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852?guestAccessKey=afd36314-652e-4195-87ef-793fcf167a76&utm_source=silverchair&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=article_alert-jama&utm_term=mostread&utm_content=olf-widget_04032020

A key goal of such policies is to decrease the encounters between infected individuals and susceptible individuals and decelerate the rate of transmission. Although such social distancing strategies are critical in the current time of pandemic, it may seem surprising that the current understanding of the routes of host-to-host transmission in respiratory infectious diseases are predicated on a model of disease transmission developed in the 1930s that, by modern standards, seems overly simplified. Implementing public health recommendations based on these older models may limit the effectiveness of the proposed interventions.

CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
Hazelpad View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: September 09 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 6910
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazelpad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 1:25pm

They do get it in the face and the eyes trouble me.

The eye as a point of viral enter is not somewhere I would like to get this virus.

The eye is an immunoprivilege site.  You do not get strong immune responses in the eye ( you can put foreign grafts in eye without rejection).

The eye immune response  is made up mostly of mechanical defences, not the usual cellular.  So mostly just defended by  blinking, tearing up etc.

This immune privilege property is an adaption to stop harmful inflammatory responses taking out our sight in the wild.  There are a few other privileged sites like the CNS and fetus, testicles, and hair follicles.

While it's TRUE that some foreign pathogens entering the eye can elicit responses via the gut and mucosal pathways,  unfortunately this only occurs if the antigen actually punctures the eye.

So in effect the virus may enter the eye unseen, undetected.

Imagine someone trying to break into Buckingham Palace by the front gate,  they have to go past all the guards and gates....now imagine there was a secret tunnel straight in unguarded....that secret tunnel is the eye. 

One of the first Chinese doctors that died was an infectious disease specialist that warned everyone about guarding their eyes because he hadnt.  

I would like to see if there is a difference in outcomes between those that get gut symptoms to those that dont.  The gut and respiratory system are connected via the mucosal pathway.  Priming of an immune response in the gut can give protection in the respiratory tract.  

So little known about this virus.  

Hz x

Back to Top
pheasant View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: May 20 2006
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 9851
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pheasant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 4:01pm

Originally posted by DeepThinker DeepThinker wrote:

Does how you are exposed to the virus make a difference in outcome?

I have a theory that I think helps explain the wide variance in outcomes among individuals and also from one geographic region and the next.

If you are exposed by your hands touching your face... I think you are likely to have the infection start in  your eye or nose.   If it starts there I think your immune system has time to react to it before  it settles into the lungs.

If you are exposed by aerosol I think the infection would start in the lungs, and by the time your immune system reacts.... there is already significant damage.  I also think that you then become a vector for aerosol infection for others.   In some instances I think toliet flushing also leads to aerosols, and this helps explain why nursing homes are so bad.

Also  think if you are only exposed to a few virus particles,  they may not be particularly hardy, or not well adapted to your body.   However if you are exposed to a large number, you are much more likely to get a stronger more well adapted virus strain.

I think in areas where you have a low levels of virus spread, when you are exposed it is more likely a very small contact exposure.   However when the virus starts spreading well, you get more severe infections, that leads to more and more other severe infections.   So maybe by just slowing the spread.... the people that do get sick will get less sick.

To the experts out there do my thoughts have any validity?



well said

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
Back to Top
FluMom View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group

Valued Member Since 2006

Joined: February 03 2020
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 14695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:09pm

I thin Deep Thinker can be correct as anyone on this.  I think it is going through the duct systems in apartments like Legionaries did in the past.  Why NYC is so screwed and the virus will not go away any time soon with all those people in NYC.  At this time our guesses about spread is as good as any doctor now. 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down